Forum Settings
       
1 2 3 4 5 Next »
Reply To Thread

The Civic Lesson every American should need.Follow

#102 Sep 19 2016 at 4:05 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
gbaji wrote:
By that logic, the best way to prevent muggings is to just teach people to stop mugging other people.

We do a much better job of teaching people that theft is wrong than we do teaching them to respect sexual boundaries. That said, the two crimes aren't especially similar in motivation or victims.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#103 Sep 19 2016 at 9:20 PM Rating: Default
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
By that logic, the best way to prevent muggings is to just teach people to stop mugging other people.

We do a much better job of teaching people that theft is wrong than we do teaching them to respect sexual boundaries.


And yet, people still get mugged, robbed, their cars and houses broken into, etc.

Quote:
That said, the two crimes aren't especially similar in motivation or victims.


Well, that's where the distinction that I always talk about (and get bashed for) comes in. The same distinction exists between forcible rape and date rape. While we can speculate about the specific case in question, the distinction you're making here is between someone who knows what he's doing is wrong and does it anyway and someone who thinks what he's doing is ok (or otherwise justifies the action). The former case is just like the comparison I made. A sexual predator is going to go looking for prey, in the same way that a thief is going to go looking for something to steal. Trying to educate that person into not committing the crime isn't likely to be terribly effective, and relying on that as your means of preventing victimization is just plain moronic.

There is a value to education of men with regard to the later case though. Again though, I really wish it would go hand in hand with education of women with regard to their own behaviors and a more equal view of responsibility in these cases. As I've mentioned many times (and someone else actually paraphrased earlier in the thread), in a lot of cases, the exact same behavior by the man can result in a charge of date rape, or not, pretty much entirely based on the woman's reaction after the fact. Even the victims letter, where the points out the absurdity of his claim that he got verbal permission from her at each stage highlights this point. No one does that. People get drunk at parties and clubs and hook up. All the time.

And guess what? People do dumb things when drunk. Like deciding to have sex in a public place. All the time. And people black out while drunk. And people pass out while drunk. People pass out while having sex while drunk (and sometimes even while blacked out). In a perfect world, no one would ever have sex except while completely sober and after having had a complete conversation with their prospective partner about every thing they plan to do, what is in our out of the limits, etc. But... No one does that. Yet, that's more or less the standard being applied here. And I think it's a pretty darn unusable standard.

And that's the problem with education in the second case. What is the education here? No means no? Well, in this case, we have no idea if she said "no" at any point (and neither does she). No sex if the other person is drunk? That's not going to work, for reasons mentioned above. Where does that basically leave guys who are trying to comply with the education? So... Go to party where there's a ton of drunk girls. If one hits on you, tell her no because she's too drunk to give consent. Watch while she goes home with your friend. Rinse. Repeat. All the "education" in the world isn't going to make horny teens and 20 somethings do that Joph. You know it. I know it. We all know it. Why pretend that's not the case?

So where does that leave us? It leaves us with the occasional edge case where some idiot guy hooks up with a drunk girl, likely thinking this is no different than any other of a thousand drunk hookup scenarios that people engage in around him all the time and which don't result in sexual assault charges, but idiot guy gets too carried away, doesn't notice she's passed out, or is too drunk/horny/whatever to stop when she does. Deplorable behavior? Absolutely. Should have gotten a longer sentence as a warning to the next idiot guy? Absolutely. No matter how drunk he is, he's responsible for his behavior while drunk, and at the point she passed out (or frankly the point where she was even close to that), he should have stopped.

But she's responsible for her behavior while drunk too. And from what I've read of the case, to all witnesses, they were both drunk and both left together. At that point, neither is any more or less responsible or a victim for any sexual activity which occurs. What happened after that point clearly changed that fact (as I mentioned above). But let's imagine a slightly different scenario. What if they had hopped in a cab and gone back to her place (she asked him to take her home IIRC), and had sex in her bed? Upon waking up, finding this stranger next to her and no memory of what happened, would she not also have a claim to him having raped her? If she had charged him, regardless of the criminal outcome, might we not possibly have a similar argument on this forum about the case? And isn't it likely that the same people arguing for his guilt and the need to educate men to not do this sort of thing would also be making those arguments in that alternative scenario?

My point is that it's not just the obvious case of assault that get this treatment. And those other scenarios are far more common, and are often the focus of the very type of education we're trying to do here. But, as mentioned above, it's a kind of "rule" that's pretty impossible to follow, because the outcome is totally dependent on reaction after the fact. In that same scenario, maybe she wakes up the next morning, doesn't remember how this stranger got here, but instead assumes that she had a good time, and moves on? Again, the guy can't know what kind of sexual habits the woman he's hooking up with has, or what she wants and doesn't want. Obviously, being assaulted in an alley while unconscious isn't on that list, but "wild sex in the alley" might. And "sex in my bedroom with a random guy" might. He can't know that. He can't tell the difference between the party girl who likes to go out on a Friday night, get rip roaring drunk, hook up with some guy, toss him out in the morning, then do it all again on Saturday night, and a girl who doesn't go out much, drinks too much, and makes what appear to him to be the exact same actions, but in her case they're things she's not going to be ok with the next day.

The guy can't read the girl's mind. Hence, the suggestion that maybe if you don't want a guy to mistake you for the wild party girl, it might be a good idea to not act exactly like said party girl. Again, this in no way is me excusing what he did in this specific case (nor the minimal jail time he got as a result), but is me pointing out that the same caution that I think it would be a good idea for all women to practice would not just have prevented this assault, but a whole lot of other unwanted sexual activity which doesn't rise to such an obvious criminally guilty outcome.

I would hope we'd all agree that would be a good thing. Again. It's not about blame. It's about the best and most effective course of action to minimize the rates of such cases. At the end of the day, I don't see that it's much comfort to the woman that she can put the "blame" on the guy. I think she'd much rather that the situation didn't happen in the first place. And I think that's better accomplished by educating women on the dangers of over drinking than it will ever be on trying to educate men to not hook up with women who are drunk.

Edited, Sep 19th 2016 8:25pm by gbaji
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#104 Sep 19 2016 at 10:07 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
I didn't read any of that. I've read enough of your views on rape to last a lifetime, thanks (but no thanks).

I'm sure it's all some flavor of "date rape is when a girl has sex but later decided she really didn't want to"

Edited, Sep 19th 2016 11:09pm by Jophiel
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#105 Sep 20 2016 at 5:17 AM Rating: Good
Worst. Title. Ever!
*****
17,302 posts
Well, burying your head in the sand won't make the issue go away. Ignoring half the populations opinions on the subject as "mansplaining" doesn't seem to help either. The issue affects men just as much as it affects women, and the solution to it will involve both sexes, and changes in both mentalities.

Whether or not a drunken fling is considered rape really does depend on how the woman feels after the fact. And any time the woman's actions are brought up is considered victim blaming, **** shaming, proof of rape culture, what ever phrases they want to use. You aren't going to stop drunk people from hooking up. And you can't just claim that any time drunk people have sex then the man committed rape and leave it at that, cause that doesn't solve anything. At some point decisions made by both parties need to have consequences.

That 20-25% number isn't coming from cases like Brock Turner. While some people may want you to believe it, it is not. The idea is that people deal with the consequences of their actions and choices while drunk. Not just men, but women too. And sometimes you may not remember fully those actions, but that is part of the consequences.
____________________________
Can't sleep, clown will eat me.
#106 Sep 20 2016 at 8:00 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
TirithRR wrote:
Well, burying your head in the sand won't make the issue go away.

Happily, there's a vast spectrum of options between "burying your head in the sand" and "wasting time humoring Gbaji's notions on rape" Smiley: smile
Quote:
Ignoring half the populations opinions on the subject as "mansplaining" doesn't seem to help either.

Fortunately, that's not an issue for me.
Quote:
The issue affects men just as much as it affects women

Well, not remotely.
Quote:
Whether or not a drunken fling is considered rape really does depend on how the woman feels after the fact. And any time the woman's actions are brought up is considered victim blaming, **** shaming, proof of rape culture, what ever phrases they want to use. You aren't going to stop drunk people from hooking up. And you can't just claim that any time drunk people have *** then the man committed rape and leave it at that, cause that doesn't solve anything.

That's one hell of a strawman. Whether or not a "drunken fling" is considered rape really depends on local law enforcement which traditionally hasn't been especially aggressive about investigating and prosecuting such cases because of the difficulties involved.

Yes, trying to deflect or reassign blame because the victim was drunk or dressed wrong or walking down the wrong street is going to be called out. Even if people get all pissy and huffy and lead off with "Call me an MRA if you want but..." and then insist that they're not REALLY reassigning blame as they say "You have to accept the consequences" as though rape should be considered a legitimate consequence of having a couple drinks.

Also, I find the constant comparisons to walking down dark alleyways flashing your gold watch and diamond tiara a little unsettling, as though a woman's body is just another commodity or luxury consumer good.

Edited, Sep 20th 2016 9:10am by Jophiel
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#107 Sep 20 2016 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
Worst. Title. Ever!
*****
17,302 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Whether or not a "drunken fling" is considered rape really depends on local law enforcement which traditionally hasn't been especially aggressive about investigating and prosecuting such cases because of the difficulties involved.


But this is the issue on college campuses. The "Blackout Drunk isn't Rape" issues that keep happening.

Jophiel wrote:
as though rape should be considered a legitimate consequence of having a couple drinks.


Not rape. Agreeing to do things you may not have agreed to if you were sober.

Jophiel wrote:
Also, I find the constant comparisons to walking down dark alleyways flashing your gold watch and diamond tiara a little unsettling, as though a woman's body is just another commodity or luxury consumer good.


But I didn't make that comparison. Stupidity of analogies aside, I'd liken it more to doing other regrettable things while drunk. Like getting tattoos, or trying drugs. Things that you may honestly have never done if sober, and may not fully remember doing, but since you chose to do after choosing to drink, really come down to a consequence of a poor decision.


Jophiel wrote:
That's one hell of a strawman.


Gotta have something the stand up in the field next to the "wear baggy clothing or I'm open to rape" and "if I say no to someone they'll get angry and assault me" strawmen out in the field already.

Edited, Sep 20th 2016 5:52pm by TirithRR
____________________________
Can't sleep, clown will eat me.
#108 Sep 20 2016 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
Repressed Memories
******
21,027 posts
gbaji wrote:
And yet, people still get mugged, robbed, their cars and houses broken into, etc.

Well, I guess all laws are pointless then.
1 2 3 4 5 Next »
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 322 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (322)