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Britain votes to leave the EUFollow

#52 Jun 28 2016 at 3:48 AM Rating: Default
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Totem wrote:
As for the calamity and ruin that is predicted by the Remainers and cosmopolitans, nothing will really change in terms of the economy. Nations will continue to trade, diplomacy will continue to occur, and the stock market will continue to rise and fall, just as if Great Britain had never left. The fearmongering of the elites will get them nowhere and life will go on.


Well, it will for the EU. But the EU is obligated to make Britains suffer now, as example to anyone else thinking of leaving.

Either the EU experiences more votes from more countries to exit it, or it survives by heavily hurting the UK, which means its citizens/body politic. That's why Italy, France, Germany want a quick article 50 declaration. So those countries can sooner show their own citizens the price of leaving. Negotiations between UK and the EU are going to be harsh. Boris Johnson's recent pollyanna speech about the impact are about as ridiculously optimistic as your post, and as anyone who was sure Leave would never win.

So, calamity and ruin, no. But hurt, yes. The EU must hurt UK for this. And yes, that will change the economy (which is the only way to hurt in this consortium/area of land and nations), by lowering the values/income of UK workers, jobs, and movement, etc. via tariffs and such.

"Nothing will really change". The EU will be slightly worse off, and the UK will be more worse off. That has to happen, realpolitik-wise. So yeah, the economy and wages/income IS going to shift, from the UK to the EU. Even if not in whole money, in relative wages. Even if a random Brit would still be better off than a random Pole or whoever. The EU might suffer too due to no more cheap UK products, but the UK will suffer more. Relatively; life will go on for Britains as a poorer nation from "Date X Dumb Vote", compared to the other countries. That simply has to happen if the EU has any balls/in order to protect itself.

I'm not sure people here understand enough why the EU has to punish GBR in obvious, real ways in order to make a point. Either this happens and yes, the UK suffers worse for leaving the EU than the EU suffers for the leaving, and in CLEAR WAYS, or the EU completely disbands since leaving it would not appear to have any negative consequence. Not just negative for the Pound or politicians, but for real random people. One happens, or the other.

Even after the shock of "holy ****, England was stupid enough to vote that way!?" some of you seem to be expecting a nice light pillow to fall back on. No, UK is gonna be ******* And should be, if the EU should remain healthy and desirable. Not even a question of whether the EU is a good thing. It's going to happen.

ETA: sorry, if you were just referring to the US stock market and investments, no, this is not going to mean much at all. Or Japanese market, etc. Sorry that I was more focused on the humans living in the European continent.


Edited, Jun 28th 2016 5:59am by Palpitus1
#53 Jun 28 2016 at 7:53 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
If you subscribe to a theory by a random reader of a newsletter, sure.
Can't be worse than random poster on a defunct gaming forum.
Well, random reader probably actually read the newsletter ...
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#54 Jun 28 2016 at 7:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Come on, now. I'm sure Gbaji skimmed some Heritage Foundation and American Enterprise Institute articles before taking the time to regurgitate what they told him.
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#55 Jun 28 2016 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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#56 Jun 28 2016 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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Besides what sounds like they want to become the United States of Europa, one of the links on that site leads to a story about a dude in Texas losing a leg to a flesh eating bacteria during a day at the beach for Father's Day.
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#57 Jun 28 2016 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
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Palpitus1, I do not think that the EU engaging in economic harm against GB is likely for the simple reason that it would be cutting off its' own nose to spite its' face. Trade between the nations is still vast and important, particularly in the new normal of near stagnant growth, so inflicting purposeful pain so as to make an example of Britain would only result in the economic downturn that the Remainers and pro-EU predicted, only at their own hands. These countries need each other as trading partners.

Again, with the UK leaving the EU, nothing really changes economically. What does change is the political landscape in that now people are demanding responsiveness from their leadership, something which is absent from an unelected, gargantuan Brussels bureaucratic technocracy. Furthermore, if GB is discovered to be just fine after this initial turbulence, other nations like France who are coming to terms with their own citizenry that are unhappy with unchecked immigration, will give leaving the EU serious thought. The possible losers in this whole Brexit thing? Germany, who holds the purse strings, and insolvent countries like Greece, who are going to be required to get serious about budgeting once the financial kitty gets smaller.
#58 Jun 28 2016 at 11:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:

I've no idea if this is true or not but I certainly wouldn't believe it so based on the Daily Mail saying it is.
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#59 Jun 28 2016 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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Is Daily Mail one of those British tabloids? I can never remember which of their rags are reasonably legit.
#60 Jun 28 2016 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
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Look at that website design then ask yourself if it looks like a respectable publication.
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#61 Jun 28 2016 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:


Interesting stuff. It is almost as if instead of learning from the results of the referendum the establishment decided to double down on all the things that make Britons to vote to leave EU. I am not sure whether current political class can sense the mood on the street, but it is bound to have quite the opposite effect. Oddly enough, one of the few people that can is Trump...
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#62 Jun 28 2016 at 6:35 PM Rating: Good
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angrymnk wrote:
It is almost as if instead of learning from the results of the referendum

It's hard to say in the short term, but the path of history has been towards more united societies.
#63 Jun 28 2016 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
It is almost as if instead of learning from the results of the referendum

It's hard to say in the short term, but the path of history has been towards more united societies.


True, but it is hard to wave away reality of the current situation. There is tension, and instead of being acknowledged it is being swept under the rug, or summarily dismissed as unwashed masses not understanding what is good for them. Big mistake. If there is something I am surprised about here, it is that UK actually seems to listen to its electorate. It is an odd experience after watching PL and US politicians easily do what they want/need in spite of the electorate wishes..
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#64 Jun 28 2016 at 10:19 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
It is almost as if instead of learning from the results of the referendum

It's hard to say in the short term, but the path of history has been towards more united societies.
I have no doubt that one day, humanity will either destroy itself or live as one people. However, I think that any effort to forcibly push towards that instead of letting it happen naturally as we expand out into the stars will be counterproductive in the extreme.
#65 Jun 28 2016 at 11:04 PM Rating: Good
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"It's hard to say in the short term, but the path of history has been towards more united societies." --Allegory

I cannot disagree more. Human nature is such that tribalism that manifests itself in sundry ways is the very essence of humanity. Persia, Babylonia, China, Genghis Khan, Rome, England, the Netherlands, Spain, the Moors, all have pressed for a hegemonic society and failed. Genghis Khan and Spain perhaps got the closest, but soon after the forceful entity, be that a person or governing construct, died or eroded into dissolution, the unity crumbled.
#66 Jun 28 2016 at 11:10 PM Rating: Good
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Ay caramba. Muy do-blay post-o.

Edited, Jun 29th 2016 1:12am by Totem
#67 Jun 29 2016 at 2:32 AM Rating: Good
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angrymnk wrote:
Allegory wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
It is almost as if instead of learning from the results of the referendum

It's hard to say in the short term, but the path of history has been towards more united societies.


True, but it is hard to wave away reality of the current situation. There is tension, and instead of being acknowledged it is being swept under the rug, or summarily dismissed as unwashed masses not understanding what is good for them. Big mistake. If there is something I am surprised about here, it is that UK actually seems to listen to its electorate. It is an odd experience after watching PL and US politicians easily do what they want/need in spite of the electorate wishes..


Local US politicians often listen to the electorate. Federal representatives do the same thing, but districting prevents them from looking out for anyone other than their own.
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#68 Jun 29 2016 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
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As long as it doesn't affect their reelection, that is.
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#69 Jun 29 2016 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Timelordwho wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
Allegory wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
It is almost as if instead of learning from the results of the referendum

It's hard to say in the short term, but the path of history has been towards more united societies.


True, but it is hard to wave away reality of the current situation. There is tension, and instead of being acknowledged it is being swept under the rug, or summarily dismissed as unwashed masses not understanding what is good for them. Big mistake. If there is something I am surprised about here, it is that UK actually seems to listen to its electorate. It is an odd experience after watching PL and US politicians easily do what they want/need in spite of the electorate wishes..


Local US politicians often listen to the electorate. Federal representatives do the same thing, but districting prevents them from looking out for anyone other than their own.


It is probably a good thing that you qualified how often they do listen. I personally disagree as to the frequency with which they do that, but that is a separate argument to have.

Personally, I still remember 2008 and pitchfork mood that surrounded me. Federal representatives did almost exactly the opposite of what the electorate wanted. I do not want to argue whether it was a good decision or not, but they certainly did not listen ( and if they did, they ignored it ).

If the representatives do listen, it appears to be closely related to the wishes of the corporations ( vide current support of TPP ). When I made an attempt to ask "my"(quotes fully justified) representative not to support TPP, I received a patronizing response that we can have 'reasonable' discussion, but there is, and I am paraphrasing, no snowflake chance in hell he would not support it with his whole heart.

Another minor anecdote - today, amusingly enough, I received a response to an email I sent Durbin over two months ago for reasons unrelated to this thread. In practical terms, majority of Polish diaspora here happens to share that position, and they do occasionally vote, but his response was a polite version of .. dunno.. you tell me..

Quote:
Although we may share different viewpoints, I will keep your concerns in mind and hope you will not hesitate to reach out on issues of importance to you in the future
.

In retrospect, I think I am in agreement with you. They listen. They do not always choose to hear.

P.S. Maybe I should start sending postcards instead of messages/emails.
P.P.S Or better yet, become bazillionaire so that I can contact my representatives more directly.

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#70 Jun 29 2016 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Allegory wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
It is almost as if instead of learning from the results of the referendum

It's hard to say in the short term, but the path of history has been towards more united societies.
I have no doubt that one day, humanity will either destroy itself or live as one people. However, I think that any effort to forcibly push towards that instead of letting it happen naturally as we expand out into the stars will be counterproductive in the extreme.


Pretty much this. There's nothing at all wrong with imagining a greater future where mankind will all get along in peace and be unified. Where the problems occur is when some people seem to think that if we skip right to the unified stage, the "mankind will all get along in peace" bit will naturally occur. But that's the wrong direction. You can't start at the end point.
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#71 Jun 29 2016 at 8:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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angrymnk wrote:
Another minor anecdote - today, amusingly enough, I received a response to an email I sent Durbin over two months ago for reasons unrelated to this thread. In practical terms, majority of Polish diaspora here happens to share that position, and they do occasionally vote, but his response was a polite version of .. dunno.. you tell me..
Quote:
Although we may share different viewpoints, I will keep your concerns in mind and hope you will not hesitate to reach out on issues of importance to you in the future

I'm not sure what else you were expecting. For purposes of volume alone, communication with your elected politicians tends to go into a "Yes" or "No" pile, weighted by method (letters > phone calls > email). Although you may think a number of people support the issue, you presumably don't actually know how many other people have contacted his office about it and what they said. For all you know, your opinion is a distinct minority statewide and what else would you expect your form email to say?
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#72 Jun 30 2016 at 4:40 AM Rating: Good
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Form letters? My MP tracks down your home phone number and calls you.


I can't decide if I'm impressed or creeped out.
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#73 Jun 30 2016 at 5:10 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Form letters? My MP tracks down your home phone number and calls you.


I can't decide if I'm impressed or creeped out.


US congressional districts have ~700k people/rep, Canadian districts appear to have ~70/rep.
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#74 Jun 30 2016 at 6:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Plus Angrymnk was talking about our senator, for which we have two guys covering thirteen million people. Probably get more hands-on service in Wyoming or something.
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#75 Jun 30 2016 at 7:40 AM Rating: Good
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Or if they think you can be a photo-op.
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#76 Jun 30 2016 at 7:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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There you go. Maybe Angrymnk just needs to be more inspirational.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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