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#1202 Jun 17 2015 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
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Cause you know, a 35 year old punching a baby in the face full force is the same amount of harm as a 35 year old punching another 35 year old in the face with the exact same force.
Except that in the case we're actually talking about, dollars are already by definition identical.

Two punches "with the exact same force" are also, by definition, identical.


But there's no equivalent to a baby versus a 35 year old though. That's where the analogy falls apart. It's circular. He's arguing that a dollar of tax to a poor person is more harm than a dollar of tax to a rich person, and then equating them to an equal punch to a baby versus to an adult. But that rests on the assumption that the conclusion he's arguing (that a dollar of tax hurts the two people differently) is true.

Since that's the very assumption I don't agree with, using an analogy based on that assumption being true is meaningless.


The dollar represents the same purchasing power for both. Therefore, taking the dollar away represents taking the same amount of purchasing power from both. There is no baby in this picture. Both are identically capable of spending that dollar in the same way. Taking it away from them affects them both the same. Period.
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#1203 Jun 17 2015 at 9:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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#1204 Jun 17 2015 at 9:21 PM Rating: Decent
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TirithRR wrote:
Well, the force behind that punch is the same, regardless of what your target is (the "buying power). See? But the harm done by that force changes based on who it hits.


Only because you are defining "harm" relative to total wealth. Again, that's the very assumption I disagree with, so using an analogy that assumes this is true doesn't really clear things up.

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If some local government decided that driving a car to work each day resulted in a 100 dollar a week fine, I could pay that and continue getting to work easily. I make enough that while I would not enjoy it, it would not hurt me nearly as much as it would my mother who makes significantly less than me. And if the goal was to make people stop doing "X" (in this case, driving a car each day), then it would not deter me from doing so, but would probably deter a person who really needs that 100 dollars. (Imagining a scenario where one cannot circumvent this fine, assume 100% enforcement). You can afford the fine, it makes the punishment a relative slap on the wrist, and doesn't create the same deterrent effect, because the relative harm is not the same, even though the amount of the fine is the same.


Again, the harm is identical. Some people can handle more harm, is all. I know that may seem like a mere semantic difference, but I happen to think it represents a significant difference in how one views relative wealth/value/currency/etc. As I've said a few times, the reason why you might teach someone to view monetary harm as relative to relative wealth is to make that person more easily accept higher taxes on wealthy people. It's about manipulating people by changing the language.

If it wasn't a significant difference then why argue it so vehemently? It's like some people need to believe that they aren't really doing more harm to someone just because that person pays more dollars in taxes. The next question you might want to ask yourself is: Why would someone want me to believe that? What policies does that make me more willing to accept as "fair"? Why not just admit that the person paying twice as many dollars in tax is being harmed twice as much? It's what's actually happening, right? I'll suggest (again) that this semantic difference is entirely about making it easier for you to support higher tax rates on "the rich", ironically under the guise of it somehow being "fair".


It's not fair. Not at all. That doesn't mean that we can't (and even maybe should) have an unfair tax system. But lets be honest that we're taxing some people more than others and move forward from there. The need to deny that this is what we're doing is somewhat amusing, but also kinda scary. Like I keep saying, this looks to me like a tool for denial. Nothing more.
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#1205 Jun 17 2015 at 10:21 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Let me also point out that the reason I keep going back to wage equality is that the underlying assumption behind thinking tax harm is relative to earnings/wealth somewhat rests on the denial of the idea that labor (in any form) can have different actual (real) value. If the reason one person earns $25k/year and another earns $100k/year is because the second person's actions actually benefited others 4x as much (and was therefore valued 4x as high), then we must accept that each dollar earned is equivalent (that's my position btw). Arguing that the dollars of a high earner represent less (harm in this case) then the dollars of a low earner is predicated on the assumption that all labor is really equal, and it's somehow unfair that some people make more than others. Arguing for variable "harm" based on how much someone earns is just a way of basically devaluing the high earners efforts, presumably as some means of equaling things out.

Which I find problematic on its own (for a host of economic and fairness reasons). But what I find more troubling is the number of people who support these sorts of things, but then either really don't get what the underlying assumption/goal behind them is, or pretend not to. I'm honestly not sure which it is. I just know that I see this sort of thinking all the time. I have to assume that most people don't actually believe that all labor should be valued the same, but then I see statements from people like Smash talking about how wages are just based on luck. His "you fell out of the right ******" comments fall into the same theme. The constant effort to dismiss the importance of individual efforts, work ethic, good choices, etc, all seem to fall into the same theme as well.

Dunno. It's just something that bothers me. As I said, I don't think most people actually believe this, but then I can't figure out why they adopt positions that ultimately are derived from that. It makes no sense.


Really? Ok.

We are not having some idiotic argument about the non-fungibility of high orders of magnitude of money, nor are we having a separate, but just as idiotic argument about the real value of money not being equal. We are specifically talking about impact magnitude of +/- gains of personal money supply. You are saying you are arguing the harm but are really having one of the two former (and still idiotic) arguments. Variable impact is a thing, and you have agreed that it is a thing. The variable is not "harm" but dollar value for impact magnitude (how much it takes to cause equivalent "harm"). Also, nobody is having the yet another idiotic argument (Henceforth referred to as YAIA) about whether all labor should be valued the same. Nor are we debating the (de)merits of communism.
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#1206 Jun 17 2015 at 10:23 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Well, the force behind that punch is the same, regardless of what your target is (the "buying power). See? But the harm done by that force changes based on who it hits.


Only because you are defining "harm" relative to total wealth. Again, that's the very assumption I disagree with, so using an analogy that assumes this is true doesn't really clear things up.


So why do two impacts of the exact same force deal different amounts of harm to the two people? The baby vs the 35 year old? They are the same force, so the harm should be the same, no? (Obviously not).

It's because the two people being struck are build different and the damage dealt is different. In this case things like bone structure, size, muscle, etc.

That's the link between the two. That while the forces involved are identical, due to other factors the harm done is different. While the number value of the money involved may be the same, the other factors of the two people that are paying it is different, and the "harm" is different as a result. If you ignore everything about the people and their situation and focus only on the amount of the money, that is the only way you can say they are equal. But it's just like saying that punching a baby and punching a 35 year old end up with the same harm.

Edited, Jun 18th 2015 12:25am by TirithRR
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#1207 Jun 18 2015 at 2:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm thinking gbaji was the baby in this scenario.
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#1208 Jun 18 2015 at 4:47 AM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:
It may. It may not. If the value of my company today is $100m and I have 1000 employees, and 5 years from now my company is worth $200m and I have 2000 employees, then the value of each individuals labor hasn't increased at all relative to the value of my company. I've expanded the company, but I've hired more employees along the way. The contribution of each one is unchanged.
I don't know much about managing a business, but I don't think the increased value of your company is linear with the number of employees. Conceptually, that appears mathematically flawed. You would be arguing that every time your company increased its value an amount equivalent to another employee, another employee is hired. I'm pretty sure the goal is to do more with less.
#1209 Jun 18 2015 at 6:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Another mass shooting.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/18/us-usa-shooting-south-carolina-idUSKBN0OY06A20150618

As we know these things only happen in places with oppressive gun control laws, like Charleston, SC. Also, 'mass shooting' now means...let's see...10 people dead. Yes, 10. So this totally doesn't count.
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#1210 Jun 18 2015 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
The argument I'm countering is that a fine of $100 harms a poor person more than a rich person because that $100 represents a greater financial burden for the poor person. [...] Yet, we don't adjust the cost of goods in the store based on the net worth of the person buying them, do we?
You're confused by two different arguments.
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Another mass shooting.
Clearly the only answer is to arm pastors.
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#1211 Jun 18 2015 at 7:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Now is not the time to politicize the gun control debate. We must wait for a period of three years without incident, after which we may discuss it politically. Naturally, since it's been three years without incident, we'll decide that no action is needed.
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#1212 Jun 18 2015 at 7:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Clearly the only answer is to arm pastors.

That would normally be the response, but this was a black church. Obviously none of the 'if more people had guns there would be less shootings' stuff applies to black people, silly.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#1213 Jun 18 2015 at 7:51 AM Rating: Good
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How far is Charleston from Knoxville?
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#1214 Jun 18 2015 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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372 miles.
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#1215 Jun 18 2015 at 8:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dumb fucker looks like the love child of Lloyd Christmas and Anton Chigur

Reading the story on the Washington Times website gives me a "You might also like..." recommendation for "Best concealed carry handguns" and "Bang for your buck: Best handguns under $500" Smiley: facepalm

Edited, Jun 18th 2015 9:44am by Jophiel
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#1216 Jun 18 2015 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
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Makes me wonder what the advertisements are like when you read stories about that coach in the other thread.
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#1217 Jun 18 2015 at 9:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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#1218 Jun 18 2015 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
But there's no equivalent to a baby versus a 35 year old though. That's where the analogy falls apart. It's circular. He's arguing that a dollar of tax to a poor person is more harm than a dollar of tax to a rich person, and then equating them to an equal punch to a baby versus to an adult. But that rests on the assumption that the conclusion he's arguing (that a dollar of tax hurts the two people differently) is true.

Since that's the very assumption I don't agree with, using an analogy based on that assumption being true is meaningless.


The dollar represents the same purchasing power for both. Therefore, taking the dollar away represents taking the same amount of purchasing power from both. There is no baby in this picture. Both are identically capable of spending that dollar in the same way. Taking it away from them affects them both the same. Period.

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Ladies and gentlemen of the supposed jury, Chef's attorney would certainly want you to believe that his client wrote "Stinky Britches" ten years ago. And they make a good case. Hell, I almost felt pity myself!

But ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk, but Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now, think about that. That does not make sense! Why would a Wookiee - an eight foot tall Wookiee - want to live on Endor with a bunch of two foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense!

What does that have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense!

Look at me, I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca. Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense. None of this makes sense.

And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberating and conjugating the Emancipation Proclamation... does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense.

None of this makes sense.

If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.

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#1219 Jun 18 2015 at 11:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Apparently the Supreme Court issues Mondays and sometimes Thursdays. They decided today that Texas wasn't obligated to issue license plates with Confederate flags on them, stating that license plates are "government speech" which is not protected by the First Amendment. The people can not compel the government to speak, just as the government can not compel the people. Also, they argued, you can just buy a bumper sticker or car magnet anyway.

Decision was 5-4 with Thomas joining the liberal wing for the majority.
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#1220 Jun 18 2015 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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Tax dollars at work.
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#1221 Jun 18 2015 at 11:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, I'm glad they got the more pressing issue out of the way first.
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#1222 Jun 18 2015 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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Looks like they arrested Roof.

Edited, Jun 18th 2015 2:06pm by lolgaxe
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#1223 Jun 18 2015 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Apparently the Supreme Court issues Mondays and sometimes Thursdays.
Yeah, this is how I think it goes, based more upon observation than something written down somewhere. They aren't holding argument sessions any longer (not since April) so they have court sessions on Mondays and they will issue those opinions they want to read from the bench on those days. Thursday is Conference day when there is no argument, Friday is Conference day when there are arguments that week. I don't think Conference day has anything to do with issuing opinions, but again this is just observational on my part.

As far as issuing decisions they don't intend to read from the bench, I'm not certain but I think it can be any day. Also, since the difficult cases usually get put off to the end, we may not hear from them in the ACA and SSM cases until the end of June.

Also-also, I find that Texas case fascinating.

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#1224 Jun 19 2015 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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Would the licenses be viewable under water?
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#1225 Jun 19 2015 at 6:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Speaking of Texas, Rick Perry has asserted that "without knowing the facts", the shooting in SC was "an accident" cause by prescription drug use.

And Obama politicized it by calling it racist.
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#1226 Jun 19 2015 at 7:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think it was Ben Carson who said it was caused by too much political correctness. My mind hurts even trying to figure that one out.
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