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#27 Nov 18 2014 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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They should have brought in their top scientist! Dr Mario
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#28 Nov 18 2014 at 11:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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spend more time playing https://kerbalspaceprogram.com/
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#29 Dec 01 2014 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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So.. What is the deal here?
Where is the "dirty snowball"? Isn't the prevailing theory dogma that comets are primordial remnants from the creation of the solar system and supposed to contain elements like water and the building blocks of life?

This thing is a rock.. in space. No surface ice.. no dust.. and it also.. why is the surface not.. smooth.. If these things are supped to be billions of years old.. why is it shaped like a dumb bell? And why are they acting so surprised at this shape when just about every other comet that we have closely observed has a similar shape?
and what does this say about the Oort Cloud?? Does it even exist or is it just a modern myth based on this religious conviction regarding the formation of our solar system?

As far as I can tell there is no real difference between a comet and and asteroid other than the attributes that we have assigned based on wishful thinking... based on this Rosetta Mission.
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#30 Dec 01 2014 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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Wow. Did some scientist kill your dog when you were a kid or something?

It should be noted that all the pieces I find on it do refer to the surface as icy and dirty ice. Not sure what exactly you are ranting about. A Forbes article yesterday talks about ice and water, soot and ash, and yet undetermined organics.

As for why they are not smooth? I would hazard to say that since they are flying around in space with no atmosphere to erode them, why would you expect them to wear down to a smooth surface? You might as well ask why every planet is not smooth.

Edited, Dec 1st 2014 4:11pm by TirithRR
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#31 Dec 01 2014 at 3:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Why in the world would it be smooth?

Anyway, I'm not sure what the point is here. If the scientific community was 100% on comets, there'd be no reason to send probes to explore and investigate comets. Why would it bother anyone to learn that we have new information?
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#32 Dec 01 2014 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Why in the world would it be smooth?

I can only assume he had some misguided belief that it should or would erode over time like a rock in the wind or a piece of drift wood in a lake.
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#33 Dec 01 2014 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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The prevailing view is that comets are primordial aggregates of ice and interstellar dust which are supposed to be the building blocks of our solar system.. however if this turns out not to be true.. and that the geological implications of comets would turn standard planetary formation model on its head.. and likely the careers of many people.
They detected evidence of water molecules remotely.. in the coma of this comet and thus assume that there is so much ice.. there are other possibilities however that would more readily explain the presence of water and no ice.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photodissociation#Photolysis_in_photosynthesis

There is also the notion of all of the other electro-chemical process that were measured http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/10/141023091805.htm
In which apparently these gases are supposed to have melted off of the surface or out of the interior of the comet when it is at a FAR greater distance from the sun than what it would take for these elements to reach sublimation. I'm not saying that I know why this is... I'm just saying that the standard model that these things are caused by the heat from the sun must be false.. so why do are these plums of gases exist if we know for a fact that there should be no sublimation at this time?

What this means, if you are not following, is that the entire current standard planetary formation theory should be scrapped.. but the fact that this is still being held as unlocking some mystery of the universe means that these people have stepped from the realm of science and into the realm of dogma and propaganda.
Again.. If it is clear that comets do not contain the building blocks of planets and have been circuiting for billions of years.. then it means that comets are just more space junk from impacts with already formed astral bodies.. The egg does not lay the chicken. If comets already contain the elements seen in planets then they would not be able to have taken part in the formation of said planets and their elements...

The more I read these explanations.. http://www.space.com/53-comets-formation-discovery-and-exploration.html
The more it just seems that they are making more and more presumptions contrary to fact.
They keep on saying "hard as ice" as if the rocks on the surface of this thing MIGHT be entirely solid ice... very misleading.
"Although the power of the hammer was gradually increased, we were not able to go deep into the surface,"
"67P proved to be a "tough nut to crack."

Yes! and nowhere did I see mentioned that the reason that this thing bounced and that the harpoon didn't work is because they were geared for ice and not solid rock.


Max Planck said it all:
“Science advances one funeral at a time.”

What do you think he meant by that and why do you think it has changed?
Do you think that the scientific community is some holy sanctified priesthood of logic? There are no Vulcans for real..
Do you think that anything that threatened the status quo of the current "giants" like Steven Hawking and Tyson is not going to be black-balled immediately? No no.. it is just like philosophy.. the student learns from the master and continues the tradition even into folly... their foundation may be known to be flawed but they keep building on it.

Ultimately.. IMO, the goal of many scientists today is to prove Panspermia.. and the recent discoveries on the nature of comets hinders this idea because they had so much riding on it.. wishful thinking is not science.


Quote:
Why in the world would it be smooth?


I don't mean like a pebble from a lake bed.. but this thing looks like it has impact craters.. and is most certainly not round.. as is commonly held in snow-Ball.
If this was made of ice that constantly vaporized and then settled again after parhelion then I wouldn't expect to see such mountainous and rocky terrain.
This thing looks like a chunk of a moon.. and not the origin of life on earth.

Edited, Dec 1st 2014 5:16pm by Kelvyquayo
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#34 Dec 01 2014 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
Kelvy wrote:
So.. What is the deal here?
Where is the "dirty snowball"?


They landed on it, poorly. But the orbiter is still there.
Quote:

Isn't the prevailing theory dogma that comets are primordial remnants from the creation of the solar system and supposed to contain elements like water and the building blocks of life?


Yup.

Quote:
This thing is a rock.. in space. No surface ice.. no dust.. and it also.. why is the surface not.. smooth.. If these things are supped to be billions of years old.. why is it shaped like a dumb bell?


The ice is inside it, mostly. Hence why comets have "tails" as they get closer to the sun. The surface isn't smoothed cause it collided with a bunch of stuff over the last few billion years. Dumbells are cool.

Quote:
And why are they acting so surprised at this shape when just about every other comet that we have closely observed has a similar shape?


They've never seen one that close before.

Quote:
and what does this say about the Oort Cloud?? Does it even exist or is it just a modern myth based on this religious conviction regarding the formation of our solar system?


Voyager is sort of in it now
, so yes it exists & we've even got pictures of some of the bigger stuff in it.

Quote:
As far as I can tell there is no real difference between a comet and and asteroid other than the attributes that we have assigned based on wishful thinking... based on this Rosetta Mission.


Your understanding of the science between a comet & an asteroid is lacking, well, a basic understanding of science.

Edited, Dec 1st 2014 5:17pm by Omegavegeta
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#35 Dec 01 2014 at 4:18 PM Rating: Good
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Any time scientists disagree, it's because we have insufficient data. Then we can agree on what kind of data to get; we get the data; and the data solves the problem. Either I'm right, or you're right, or we're both wrong. And we move on. That kind of conflict resolution does not exist in politics or religion.

-Neil deGrasse Tyson

I know of no time in human history where ignorance was better than knowledge.

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Just think for how long humanity was controlled by mystical, magical thinking - the diseases and suffering that led to. We managed to survive, but just barely. It wasn't pretty.

Neil deGrasse Tyson
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#36 Dec 01 2014 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
he ice is inside it, mostly. Hence why comets have "tails" as they get closer to the sun.


I guess we'll see this summer at parhelion.. or not..
But tails do not have be formed from just water.. this comet clearly has activity going on which we previously thought was caused by heat from the sun but now we observe plums of vaporized matter when it is still 300 million miles away?

Quote:
They've never seen one that close before.


They've seen numerous comets..many having a similar dumbell shape.

Quote:
Your understanding of the science between a comet & an asteroid is lacking, well, a basic understanding of science.


I know right
http://www.universetoday.com/111795/asteroid-2013-uq4-suddenly-becomes-a-dark-comet-with-a-bright-future/

I have always understood the prime difference to be what they are made of... (and their orbit.. but that is an attribute)
If this is showing they are made of the same crap as asteroid and planet the the only difference is imaginary.. Asteroids can have tails..
We we have yet to see this magic snow ball.

Edited, Dec 1st 2014 5:33pm by Kelvyquayo
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#37 Dec 01 2014 at 8:36 PM Rating: Good
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I guess we'll see this summer at parhelion.. or not..


We will. We'll even find out what makes up most of the ice.

Quote:
But tails do not have be formed from just water.. this comet clearly has activity going on which we previously thought was caused by heat from the sun but now we observe plums of vaporized matter when it is still 300 million miles away?


Gravity, solar winds, magnetic fields, radiation, temp. fluctuations...

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If this is showing they are made of the same crap as asteroid and planet the the only difference is imaginary..


Um...everything in the solar system is pretty much made from the same stuff, just different quantities of it. The difference in quantities is measurable & not imaginary.

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Asteroids can have tails..We we have yet to see this magic snow ball.


I didn't realize any scientists were looking for magic snowballs, as "magic" has never been scientifically documented throughout all of human existence. It certainly isn't observable or measurable. Sure, people see **** they can't explain, but once scientists gather all the data they need its usually pretty explainable.

And wtf does a link to a story about an old comet that was thought to be dead "waking up" when getting close to the sun have to do with anything?
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#38 Dec 02 2014 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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Friar Bijou wrote:
Just think for how long humanity was controlled by mystical, magical thinking - the diseases and suffering that led to. We managed to survive, but just barely. It wasn't pretty.

Neil deGrasse Tyson
I don't know, it was pretty good for population control.
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#39 Dec 02 2014 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Friar Bijou wrote:
Just think for how long humanity was controlled by mystical, magical thinking - the diseases and suffering that led to. We managed to survive, but just barely. It wasn't pretty.

Neil deGrasse Tyson
I don't know, it was pretty good for population control.


And the fable business.
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#40 Dec 03 2014 at 9:22 AM Rating: Good
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I didn't realize any scientists were looking for magic snowballs, as "magic" has never been scientifically documented throughout all of human existence. It certainly isn't observable or measurable. Sure, people see **** they can't explain, but once scientists gather all the data they need its usually pretty explainable.


Yes, but as long as it is explainable within lines of their dogma.
Look DON'T question me.. I KNOW what I'm about... I've got 1000s of hours of watching Star Trek under my belt.Smiley: sly
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#41 Dec 03 2014 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
Kelvy wrote:
Yes, but as long as it is explainable within lines of their dogma.

Isaac Asimov wrote:

The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'


Science gets excited when there's new data that conflicts with what we thought to be known as true. It isn't really "dogma" since science is flexible in that sense, provided you can prove it with evidence. No one knew comets could sing, for example, which is pretty ******* cool. Hopefully we got enough data before the lander croaked to figure out the how & why's of it!


Edited, Dec 3rd 2014 2:45pm by Omegavegeta
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#42 Dec 03 2014 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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Science gets excited when there's new data that conflicts with what we thought to be known as true. It isn't really "dogma" since science is flexible in that sense


I bet Science itself does get exited and it can invite Wisdom over to celebrate, I agree. Science is supposed to shed light on the darkness of ignorance and error by its nature.
But I am talking about human beings with egos and careers and things to loose by any threatening of the a standard model..
They base everything on a grain of hope and assumption.
For example... Billions are spent chasing potential ghosts of gravity waves which have never actually been observed. Black holes were invented to fill in the variable of energy output of a galaxy..
The universe is said to be 96% dark matter... so if that is a fact than this would mean that all of our theories about matter are only based off of our knowledge on a 4% sample? This assumed substance was invented to fill in the gaps of knowledge of why galaxies act the way they do.. without it everything falls apart. This is all to preserve the assumption that gravity must be the end-all be-all. What if it is something else? If all the money is based on popular theories than I am positing that any theory the seeks to contradict what is commonly taught as science FACT is going to die on the vine. It's not rational.
Check out the late Alton Harp (assistant to Hubble). His discoveries that objects that were very close together and yet had different red-shifts flies in the face of the Big-Bang theory..actually it completely contradicts it. as a result he was not allowed to publish anything in any scientific journal.. essentially black-balled and shunned by the scientific community,

“Alice laughed. 'There's no use trying,' she said. 'One can't believe impossible things.'
I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. 'When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.


Argumentum ad Ignorantiam

When the scientific method is unavailable because of the impossibility of controlled repeatable phenomenon (in sciences like archeology, geology..) so we use substitutes.. deductive reasoning and mathematical proofs..
The deductive method can never be verified.. untestable.. ultimately meaningless.
Mathematical proof is nothing more than a synthetic collection of rules.. however consistent and elegant and complex the model.. it is still ultimately synthetic and doesn't have to represent any reality at all.. Many of our prevailing models are based on these proofs and not actually on scientific method.. by necessity. The domain of validity is limited to the framework that we have created.
Now the next step would be PEER reviewed journal.. but this means that any paper that challenges the common understanding.. your 'competition' essentially is the gatekeeper of any truth.. It's a conflict of interest (especially when money is involved) and leads to the ossification of assumption..
Inference is not proof. Asserting the consequent is folly and the biggest impediment to knowledge is the belief that you already have it.
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#43 Dec 03 2014 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
Kelvy wrote:
For example... Billions are spent chasing potential ghosts of gravity waves which have never actually been observed.


Cosmic background radiation, that pretty much proved the big bang, wasn't observable for 20 some odd years until after it was predicted by a mathematical proof & it was another 40 after that until we had the tech to map it. Gravity waves are actually sort of an extension of that & science is still working to detect them which will further confirm both the standard model & the big bang.

Quote:
Black holes were invented to fill in the variable of energy output of a galaxy..


Black holes are a result of the standard model & were "invented" when the first stars big enough to form them collapsed. Due to their nature, we can't observe them directly, but we have pictures of some event horizons and their extreme gravity causes gravitational lensing which is also observable.

Quote:
The universe is said to be 96% dark matter... so if that is a fact than this would mean that all of our theories about matter are only based off of our knowledge on a 4% sample? This assumed substance was invented to fill in the gaps of knowledge of why galaxies act the way they do.. without it everything falls apart. This is all to preserve the assumption that gravity must be the end-all be-all. What if it is something else?


Dark Matter & energy are actually two different things & are named "dark" because like black holes, we can't observe them directly. We can observe their effects though. Sure, it could be "something else" & if data supports that, swell.

Quote:
If all the money is based on popular theories than I am positing that any theory the seeks to contradict what is commonly taught as science FACT is going to die on the vine. It's not rational.


Not if it has data to support it that stands up under peer review it won't.

Quote:
Check out the late Alton Harp (assistant to Hubble). His discoveries that objects that were very close together and yet had different red-shifts flies in the face of the Big-Bang theory..actually it completely contradicts it. as a result he was not allowed to publish anything in any scientific journal.. essentially black-balled and shunned by the scientific community,


Ya, & there were & are Scientists, Kings, Queens, Presidents, Religious leaders, politicians, & businesses that deny science all the time because it doesn't fit into their worldview. But if you can prove it with both math & observations, its harder for it to remain denied.

Quote:
When the scientific method is unavailable because of the impossibility of controlled repeatable phenomenon (in sciences like archeology, geology..) so we use substitutes.. deductive reasoning and mathematical proofs..
The deductive method can never be verified.. untestable.. ultimately meaningless.
Mathematical proof is nothing more than a synthetic collection of rules.. however consistent and elegant and complex the model.. it is still ultimately synthetic and doesn't have to represent any reality at all.. Many of our prevailing models are based on these proofs and not actually on scientific method.. by necessity. The domain of validity is limited to the framework that we have created.
Now the next step would be PEER reviewed journal.. but this means that any paper that challenges the common understanding.. your 'competition' essentially is the gatekeeper of any truth.. It's a conflict of interest (especially when money is involved) and leads to the ossification of assumption..


I disagree.

Quote:
Asserting the consequent is folly and the biggest impediment to knowledge is the belief that you already have it.


The biggest impediment to knowledge is money, power, ego, lack of understanding, & an unhealthy belief in the supernatural.


Edited, Dec 3rd 2014 5:39pm by Omegavegeta
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#44 Dec 04 2014 at 12:29 AM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
I bet Science itself does get exited and it can invite Wisdom over to celebrate, I agree. Science is supposed to shed light on the darkness of ignorance and error by its nature.
But I am talking about human beings with egos and careers and things to loose by any threatening of the a standard model..
They base everything on a grain of hope and assumption.
When did you start to let gbaji post on your account?
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#45 Dec 04 2014 at 9:36 AM Rating: Decent
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I figure it's the peyote talking.
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#46 Dec 04 2014 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
I figure it's the peyote talking.


He's the forum's religious nut job. Hallucinogens aside.
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#47 Dec 04 2014 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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His posts strike me as the ranting of a doped-up shamanic vision.
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#48 Dec 04 2014 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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His posts strike me as the ranting of a doped-up shamanic vision.

It's probably sadder than that. It strikes me as the result of a man too intelligent to cope with meaningless reality of human existence through ignorance, while at the same time being too creative and open minded not to try and find some reason life might not be so pointless. The detour from the path of nihilism is often spirituality for those who care for others and feel for the world as a whole. For high functioning sociopaths like me, it's trivial to say "life is meaningless, lying to yourself doesn't make it any less so". For people with empathy and intelligence, I imagine it's a constant battle to find something to cling to which makes life worth living.



Edited, Dec 4th 2014 1:26pm by Smasharoo
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#49 Dec 04 2014 at 12:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
For people with empathy and intelligence, I imagine it's a constant battle to find something to cling to which makes life worth living.

A high post count helps Smiley: um
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#50 Dec 04 2014 at 1:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
His posts strike me as the ranting of a doped-up shamanic vision.

It's probably sadder than that. It strikes me as the result of a man too intelligent to cope with meaningless reality of human existence through ignorance, while at the same time being too creative and open minded not to try and find some reason life might not be so pointless. The detour from the path of nihilism is often spirituality for those who care for others and feel for the world as a whole. For high functioning sociopaths like me, it's trivial to say "life is meaningless, lying to yourself doesn't make it any less so". For people with empathy and intelligence, I imagine it's a constant battle to find something to cling to which makes life worth living.




Obligatory "it' can't be both?"

That said, you may be right. I don't think I'm a high functioning sociopath, but I've never specifically ruled it out, either. At any rate, I find the search for meaning fascinating. People weave their entire lives around it. Fight wars over it. Turn their backs on rational answers because they can't face the implications. Do themselves and others harm without a second thought in service to maintaining that illusion.

It's dangerous for me to think this way for too long - the impulse to **** with people gets to be too much, and that's not the person I want to be.
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#51 Dec 04 2014 at 1:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
People weave their entire lives around it. Fight wars over it. Turn their backs on rational answers because they can't face the implications. Do themselves and others harm without a second thought in service to maintaining that illusion.

What were we talking about? Twilight?

Team werewolf-guy!
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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