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#752 Oct 24 2014 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
Because you're vocally supporting a movement that's spawning that hate and you and the rest of the movement at large are doing **** to actually address that.
I like the irony where you're also vocally supporting a movement that's spawning hate and the rest of the movement at large is doing shit all to actually address that.
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#753 Oct 24 2014 at 8:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Are you referring to the feminist movement or to the status quo? Because the latter isn't a movement.

Because there ARE big issues with both, but the only direct responsibility I have is to call out offenses committed in the name of feminism.

But there's also the blunt fact that feminism is a movement of primarily disenfranchised persons attempting to equalize societal power structures between genders. Gamergate is a primarily male movement with a significant population of misogynists interested in utilizing their existing power to commit gender-policing attacks.

One is a place of relative privilege, the other one isn't.
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#754 Oct 24 2014 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
No, see, it doesn't work that way. YOU don't get to arbitrarily ME into a movement - the world isn't broken down into two movements, gamergaters and the enemy. I don't have a side, I have an independent, individual position that isn't part of any movement I'm claiming solidarity with. I am criticizing a movement based upon serious issues originating from within the movement and the group of people who actively create the movement by vocally claiming solidarity with it.
If Vegeta can arbitrarily assign GG a leader despite the fact that we're a mostly leaderless movement, I can label you guys whatever I want based on your loose agreement with a movement whether you identify with them or not. Hell, a lot of people on your side of the argument aren't affiliated with a specific group. They're just all saying the same thing. Quid pro quo, Clarice.

idiggory wrote:
Because you've chosen to support a movement that's essentially open-enrollment, whose edges are defined solely by who CHOOSES to act in solidarity with the movement (in whatever way that happens to develop), you're supporting. So when gamergate doxxes someone, and you vocally support gamergate in general terms, you're still lending your support to doxxing behaviors.
And if you eat sugar, you're exactly like HITLER! Smiley: rolleyes

You may not have noticed it, but GG HAS been calling out its own when it finds it happening. We just have no way of being certain when it's one of ours, a third party troll or a false flag. So we hit things on a case by case basis and we hit them hard where we can. Doxxing attempts on 8chan have been spammed so hard that they got buried and nigh unreadable until a mod could be found to deal with it. The problem with a leaderless movement is that while some of our most vocal people(MundaneMatt and TB, for instance) have come out saying strongly that doxxing is wrong, it can't speak for the whole movement. And all our smaller voices are harder to find. I'm also not surprised that the people we're fighting, WHO ARE THE MEDIA, aren't reporting on us dealing with our own. So I'm also not surprised that you have this belief that we're not doing anything. Let someone try to doxx and threaten someone on here and I'll ******* show you just what the hell we do to those kinds of people. Zam's administration won't hear the end of me until I get a call from the FBI that they're working on it.

On the topic of third party trolls, yes they exist. I've seen the names of two such groups who are doing it and I'm not going to give them the publicity.


idiggory wrote:
I, right now, am not claiming solidarity with any "anti-gamergate" movement. This is me personally disgusted with a bunch of misogynistic ***** and the legion of privileged pricks who think they can sit by and ignore what people in their movement are doing because they, personally, aren't committing the offenses. I literally live my life in that kind of **** show, and I'm not going to sit here and pretend like it's okay for people to be pretending it's not their problem when they're actively lending support to the environment that creates the offenses.
You may not be claiming them, but they are claiming you. You are their shield whether you claim them or not. And they're happy to continue with the new version of "Operation Get-Behind-the-Darkies" as long as you're willing to let them.

idiggory wrote:
I'm sorry if you've positioned yourself so deeply within the movement that you can't see what it's like from the outside of it, but that's still your choice. And you are held accountable for it.
One who makes this claim should look to make sure that they aren't in a glass house, albeit unbeknownst to the them, before slinging stones. And you better makesure that you aren't throwing stones at those who aren't guilty of the crimes you accuse them of. It can be harder to see with a leaderless organization, but there are tons of voices speaking up.
#755 Oct 24 2014 at 9:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If Vegeta can arbitrarily assign GG a leader despite the fact that we're a mostly leaderless movement, I can label you guys whatever I want based on your loose agreement with a movement whether you identify with them or not. ****, a lot of people on your side of the argument aren't affiliated with a specific group. They're just all saying the same thing. Quid pro quo, Clarice.


False equivocation. You can absolutely feel free to label everyone else - I mean, it's a disturbing way of looking at the world, but you can - but that doesn't mean that people opposed to your movement have adopted a collective identity and are vocally reinforcing the positive or negative behaviors of each other.


Regarding your next argument about it being a leaderless movement, that's the entire point. It's public identity IS the message it expresses. So even if you're all having conversations about how harassment is bad, and you're trying to police it, the movement is failing abysmally at doing it. Why? Because literally the entire world outside of Gamergate ad a select, small portion of gamers think that it's a movement of misogynistic douches. And this isn't just random people; it's people in prominent positions of geek culture - the guys at Penny Arcade, Felicia Day, Joss Whedon.

So, again, my point is that you may be too deep to see it, but the effect of supporting Gamergate is the effect of supporting a hate movement. Even if 80% of the movement was extremely unhappy with the loud, assholish 20%, that doesn't mean **** if your movement can't shut that down. Is that hard as hell? Yeah, it is. But that's the choice you make in affiliating yourself with a movement without membership criteria.


Quote:
You may not be claiming them, but they are claiming you. You are their shield whether you claim them or not. And they're happy to continue with the new version of "Operation Get-Behind-the-Darkies" as long as you're willing to let them.


See, this is a really ****** up way of thinking.

It literally doesn't matter how many gamergaters aren't okay with doxxing Felicia Day unless the unacceptability of doxxing Felicia Day is so fundamentally in-keeping with Gamergate that you don't even need to defend yourself. What part of that can you not understand?

Wanna know why? Because one of the first posts that pops up on twitter when you do a hashtag search for #gamergate involves someone being attacked for their "rancid feminist ******."

And you know what? Part of that is clearly a problem of the actual technology. By using hashtags as the mechanism of its conversation, gamergate has established itself under a system by which the very worst people in the movement are very easily highlighted to a casual observer. I'd have to actually go and dig into the grit of the central gamergate discussion areas to see what you see regarding the movement. But that's your problem. It's the movement YOU are claiming solidarity with, and that means claiming solidarity with the public display of the movement.

The only possible way to counter the gamergate members at the fringe, as you'd argue it, is to be so loud in opposing those views (and affirming their opposite), that those fringe views were clearly fringe views to the casual observer.


The fact that we're having this conversation is because gamergate has failed. And I'm sorry if you don't agree with the public image of the movement, but that IS the public image. And you're claiming solidarity with that perpetuates the hate that defines the public image.
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#756 Oct 24 2014 at 10:03 AM Rating: Good
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I'm going to get to the rest in a minute, but I had to answer this right now.
idiggory wrote:
Wanna know why? Because one of the first posts that pops up on twitter when you do a hashtag search for #gamergate involves someone being attacked for their "rancid feminist ******."

That one's three ******* minutes old! We're not goddamned clairvoyant! Jesus H. Christo, man!
Edit: Nvm, that's a photo, gimme a sec to find the actual tweet.
Edit2: The troll tweet is gone. But she's pretty toxic and dismissive herself. Not sure who got it nuked. Actually the whole account is nuked, so I can't see their history to see if they're one of us, a third party troll or a false flag. But those never happen, right? Regardless of who did it, they've been taken down, so all is good, eh?

Edited, Oct 24th 2014 10:20am by Poldaran
#757 Oct 24 2014 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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Pold, I don't know if you've read it yet, but read Felicia Day's post. Really read it. That's the personal experience of a woman involved in Gaming and how the public perception and affect of Gamer Gate had on her life BEFORE the doxxing. Remember that this is an actual person with actual feelings who has been personally victimized in the name of that movement.

I'm sorry if that's not what you want the movement to be. I'm sorry if that's not what the movement is at its heart, or that you believe that regardless of if it's true. But THAT'S what Gamer Gate has been to people who aren't in the privileged group at it's core.

So when you say you support Gamer Gate, THAT'S who you are to me. I don't care what your opinions on game journalism are, I don't care what kind of internal activism you're partaking in to address that issue. All I care about is the fact that you're supporting a movement that has had this effect on innocent people in the gaming industry, because the public face of the movement is defined by gross misogyny.

And to be blunt, I don't believe for a second that you're sitting in reddits writing condemnations of misogynistic behaviors in Gamer Gate. I think you're seeing a few others doing it, up-voting, and going to rant about Kotaku.

[EDIT]

My point was not about the tweet. My point wasn't about responses to the tweet. My point was that gamergate, in being a hashtag movement, is the kind of environment where that CAN happen. And for a long period, when you went in gamergate tags, it was a LOT of that. And it's a shame if that's not what the rest of the movement was about, but I honestly don't believe that. I don't believe that the anger over games journalism wasn't motivated by the "agenda" of social justice in games reporting. I don't believe that's not the general anger at Gawker and other sites. I just don't.

Edited, Oct 24th 2014 12:09pm by idiggory
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#758 Oct 24 2014 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
But there's also the blunt fact that feminism is a movement of primarily disenfranchised persons attempting to equalize societal power structures between genders.
As long as you guys continue to not denounce and decry Zoe Quinn and Anna Sarkeesan, and in fact blindly defend them, then you are not fighting for feminism, you're harming it.
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#759 Oct 24 2014 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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I know next to nothing about Zoe Quinn or Anna Sarkeesan. My blind defense of them goes so far as to firmly believe that they don't deserve to be doxxed, harassed, or threatened with death/rape.

I feel like that's not really a position I have to spend much time defending. Or at least, I felt that way before gamer gate. Now it's just ******* ridiculous that that even needs to be spelled out.

If they're ****** game designers, or they're unethical, or whatever, just don't buy their games? It's working for me.
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IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

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#760 Oct 24 2014 at 10:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory wrote:
My blind defense of them goes so far as to firmly believe that they don't deserve to be doxxed, harassed, or threatened with death/rape.

You're a mad man.
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#761 Oct 24 2014 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
I know next to nothing about Zoe Quinn or Anna Sarkeesan.
So you dont even know the details of what is really the issues here but you're certain that it's misogynist to disagree with it? Sorry, the whole "big picture at all costs" stance is a criminal offense to me. Enjoy your noble crusade.
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#762 Oct 24 2014 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
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idiggory wrote:
It's public identity IS the message it expresses. So even if you're all having conversations about how harassment is bad, and you're trying to police it, the movement is failing abysmally at doing it. Why? Because literally the entire world outside of Gamergate ad a select, small portion of gamers think that it's a movement of misogynistic douches. And this isn't just random people; it's people in prominent positions of geek culture - the guys at Penny Arcade, Felicia Day, Joss Whedon.
That's the message the people in the media are spreading. Even if that were literally .001% of what happens, it would still be the message they would spread. Why? Because otherwise they'd have to talk about our issues with them.

As for the Penny Arcade thing, all I've found is them saying that we'll have to circumvent the media because we're associated with what the media says we are. I take it as much for Gamergate's ideals as it is against what people say we are. The other two are simply misinformed, so I don't blame them. I mean, it's not like WE attacked Gamersgate.com. Smiley: wink
#763 Oct 24 2014 at 10:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory wrote:
I know next to nothing about Zoe Quinn or Anna Sarkeesan.
So you dont even know the details of what is really the issues here but you're certain that it's misogynist to disagree with it? Sorry, the whole "big picture at all costs" stance is a criminal offense to me. Enjoy your noble crusade.



I believe his point is that whether you agree or disagree, threatening them with rape and murder is hardly an appropriate response.
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#764 Oct 24 2014 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory wrote:
I know next to nothing about Zoe Quinn or Anna Sarkeesan.
So you dont even know the details of what is really the issues here but you're certain that it's misogynist to disagree with it? Sorry, the whole "big picture at all costs" stance is a criminal offense to me. Enjoy your noble crusade.

This issue is people being threatened.

That's the issue. You may want it to be about a girl that lied, or cheated on her bf, or the other girl that wrote stuff and said mean things or teased someone on the internets. It's not about that.

Let me reiterate, it's there in the OP, this is about female people being harassed and threatened for their opinions about games and gamers. It doesn't mean that girls don't lie or that boys don't get threatened too. Start another 'gate' if you want to go there.

You continually trying to change the subject is making you look like a fricken dumb ***** Not only that, the denial seeping out of every post you write that attempts to deflect the issue causes one to question your own motives.

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#765 Oct 24 2014 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory wrote:
I know next to nothing about Zoe Quinn or Anna Sarkeesan.
So you dont even know the details of what is really the issues here but you're certain that it's misogynist to disagree with it? Sorry, the whole "big picture at all costs" stance is a criminal offense to me. Enjoy your noble crusade.

This issue is people being threatened.

That's the issue. You may want it to be about a girl that lied, or cheated on her bf, or the other girl that wrote stuff and said mean things or teased someone on the internets. It's not about that.

Let me reiterate, it's there in the OP, this is about female people being harassed and threatened for their opinions about games and gamers. It doesn't mean that girls don't lie or that boys don't get threatened too. Start another 'gate' if you want to go there.

You continually trying to change the subject is making you look like a fricken dumb ****. Not only that, the denial seeping out of every post you write that attempts to deflect the issue causes one to question your own motives.
Far be it for a 14 page thread to talk about ongoing issues that are tangentially related. It happens in less.
#766 Oct 24 2014 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory wrote:
I know next to nothing about Zoe Quinn or Anna Sarkeesan.
So you dont even know the details of what is really the issues here but you're certain that it's misogynist to disagree with it? Sorry, the whole "big picture at all costs" stance is a criminal offense to me. Enjoy your noble crusade.



I believe his point is that whether you agree or disagree, threatening them with rape and murder is hardly an appropriate response.
That's got nothing to do with gender. "Gamers" threaten to rape and murder everyone regardless of gender. Can't think of a multi-player game where I haven't been threatened with rape and murder. Usually results in me raping and murdering their toon.
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#767 Oct 24 2014 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Usually results in me raping and murdering their toon.
How often is it in that order, though?
#768 Oct 24 2014 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
I mean, it's not like WE attacked Gamersgate.com. Smiley: wink
LIES! I bet you did just to blame it on the feminists and keep this little kerfluffle going! It's all a conspiracy! Smiley: tinfoilhat

What? That's how we all keep this thing going right? Smiley: rolleyes
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#769 Oct 24 2014 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Usually results in me raping and murdering their toon.
How often is it in that order, though?
Me raping and then murdering or me doing that, then getting threatened?
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#770 Oct 24 2014 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Usually results in me raping and murdering their toon.
How often is it in that order, though?
Me raping and then murdering or me doing that, then getting threatened?
Rape then murder. My experience with FPS usually sees it go the other way.

I'm not very good at FPSes.
#771 Oct 24 2014 at 10:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
What? That's how we all keep this thing going right? Smiley: rolleyes

Waiting on Gawker exposé of Gamersgate.com DDOS attack and threats Smiley: wink2
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#772 Oct 24 2014 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Elinda wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory wrote:
I know next to nothing about Zoe Quinn or Anna Sarkeesan.
So you dont even know the details of what is really the issues here but you're certain that it's misogynist to disagree with it? Sorry, the whole "big picture at all costs" stance is a criminal offense to me. Enjoy your noble crusade.

This issue is people being threatened.

That's the issue. You may want it to be about a girl that lied, or cheated on her bf, or the other girl that wrote stuff and said mean things or teased someone on the internets. It's not about that.

Let me reiterate, it's there in the OP, this is about female people being harassed and threatened for their opinions about games and gamers. It doesn't mean that girls don't lie or that boys don't get threatened too. Start another 'gate' if you want to go there.

You continually trying to change the subject is making you look like a fricken dumb ****. Not only that, the denial seeping out of every post you write that attempts to deflect the issue causes one to question your own motives.
Far be it for a 14 page thread to talk about ongoing issues that are tangentially related. It happens in less.

This response isn't related to my comment.

My comment is based on Lolgaxe trying to deflect blame, kind of like you just tried to do with this post - change the subject, find some imperfection and blame in the victim or whomever you're trying to discredit. It's pretty transparent.

My comment quoted above has nothing to do with a thread-derail.
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#773 Oct 24 2014 at 10:58 AM Rating: Good
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If you feel that the actions of some people, ie threatening people over/in/about games, is justified or acceptable behavior then just say that.

No need to try and confuse the issue.






Edited, Oct 24th 2014 6:59pm by Elinda
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#774 Oct 24 2014 at 11:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Usually results in me raping and murdering their toon.
How often is it in that order, though?
Me raping and then murdering or me doing that, then getting threatened?
Rape then murder. My experience with FPS usually sees it go the other way.

I'm not very good at FPSes.
The amount of necrophilia in multiplayer games is a bit on the disturbing side.
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#775 Oct 24 2014 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I feel absolutely no call to try and defend Zoe Quinne or Anna Sarkeesan in terms of their actions or their beliefs, but I feel a very strong call to defend them against threats of harassment or rape/other forms of violence.

And if they weren't being threatened with rape, then I'd be willing to engage in the conversation about whether or not they were doing/thinking something wrong. But they ARE being threatened, and that's a much more important issue. And discussing whether or not they were in the wrong would be dismissing the actual problem here.

Even worse, it would be participating in the cultural norm of victim-blaming in cases of violence against women, which I refuse to do.
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#776 Oct 24 2014 at 11:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe I missed it but I don't think anyone seriously interested in having a conversation about the various talking points on either side is defending rape or death threats at this point. There's been talk that people besides feminists receive them, and that the problem is widespread, but I don't recall anyone saying this is a good thing by any means.
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