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It's Friday and All ThatFollow

#77 Jun 14 2014 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Seems like summer vacations were longer than six weeks when I was a kid. Have they been shrinking?


The boys go to a year round school. Usually it's 9 weeks in school, 3 weeks off, but all schools have a week or two in July and December off. Our schedule works out that when they should be going back in, that time off is added in. So they get the whole month of June and December off.
#78 Jun 14 2014 at 1:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
ElneClare wrote:
I gave my old collection of cards to my grandson. He plays at local store when he can...

...find someone to explain a Pinochle deck to him.

As a teenager I used to play pinochle while on vacation with the old folks (when they were still alive). Don't really remember it much, but I think it gave me a good base for playing a lot of Spades while smoking through sacks of pot in the basement.
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#79 Jun 14 2014 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
Ok, this thread it making me twitch. Got rid of my cards years ago, though random lands still show up from time to time. Don't know if I even have my prized collection of Lord of the Pits around still.
Creatures have gotten so much better over the last decade that unless your Lord Of The Pits were from Alpha or Beta they'd be more or less worthless now.

It's lands and spells from the days of old that have stayed or gotten very valuable, mostly lands with duals, fetch, wastelands, Gaea's Cradle and Rishadan ports all being Legacy (and vintage) staples.
#80 Jun 14 2014 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Think of it like a college fund, especially if you decide to make your deck all shiny and black bordered with dual lands and foil Force of Wills.

You'll only have a pile of 75 cards worth the same as a brand new car!


Personally, if I had the money, I'd build a Sneak & Show deck because nothing beats a turn 1 Emrakul or Griselbrand.


It's been so long since I've played. If you have a dual land (Volcanic Island, for example), and there is an affect that say... all Islands produce an extra blue when tapped, when you tap Volcanic Island for a red mana, will it produce one red and one additional blue?
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#81 Jun 14 2014 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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I think so... The only deck that actually uses High Tide is, euh, High Tide which is such a complicated deck that when I see it I fail to keep track of what exactly happens. Doesn't help that when High Tide goes off it's pretty much unstoppable and the only cards that still matter are blue anyway.
#82 Jun 14 2014 at 2:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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It would need to say "Island" in the 'type' field. For example, Overgrown Tomb says "Land - Swamp Forest" versus Temple of Malady simply says "Land". A card that said "All Forests Tap for One Extra G" would only affect the former and not the latter.

Volcanic Island is just a "Land" and doesn't count as an Island for effects like High Tide, Islandwalk or keeping your Sea Serpents alive. Old basic lands don't say their type on them but they're considered to match the updated text of the new basic lands.

Edited, Jun 14th 2014 3:51pm by Jophiel
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#83 Jun 14 2014 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Debalic wrote:
Ok, this thread it making me twitch. Got rid of my cards years ago, though random lands still show up from time to time. Don't know if I even have my prized collection of Lord of the Pits around still.
Creatures have gotten so much better over the last decade that unless your Lord Of The Pits were from Alpha or Beta they'd be more or less worthless now.

My general impression is that old creatures suck compared to new creatures and new spells suck compared to old spell counterparts. There's exceptions on both ends, of course, but stuff like Force of Nature is a joke these days and things like Lightning Bolt, Demonic Tutor and Fork now only exist in watered down alternate forms.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#84 Jun 14 2014 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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Edit: Even just regular Counterspell isn't reprinted anymore despite being in every set for ages, then followed up by Mana Leak which is now also too strong. And of course Mental Misstep which proved to be quite the, euh, mental misstep for WotC when it became an automatic 4 of in every single Legacy and Vintage deck purely because of how strongly those formats lean on 1 CMC cards.

There are also some oddities with new card types where WotC failed to see the power level (Skullclamp and Jace The Mind Sculptor most notably).

Jophiel wrote:
Volcanic Island is just a "Land" and doesn't count as an Island for effects like High Tide, Islandwalk or keeping your Sea Serpents alive. Old basic lands don't say their type on them but they're considered to match the updated text of the new basic lands.
Dual lands are both land types, else fetch lands wouldn't work and they do. Also gatherer link.

And high tide does give an extra blue mana when dual lands are tapped for their other colour, from the gatherer rulings: "The delayed triggered ability triggers and produces {U} any time a land with the land-type Island is tapped for mana, even if that land has other types or the mana for which it was tapped is another color. For example, if you tap a Breeding Pool for {G}, High Tide will give you an extra {U}."

Edited, Jun 14th 2014 11:06pm by Aethien
#85 Jun 14 2014 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
ElneClare wrote:
I gave my old collection of cards to my grandson. He plays at local store when he can...

...find someone to explain a Pinochle deck to him.


They were some of my MtG decks and all of my ex boyfriend's decks, era 1994 to '97. He also has my youngest Pokemon cards, that she collected back in middle school. He doesn't play Pokemon that often, but his sister like to play it.

The ex bf had huge collection, he gave me and their maybe a few valuable cards among them.
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In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare

This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
#86 Jun 14 2014 at 3:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Dual lands are both land types, else fetch lands wouldn't work and they do. Also gatherer link.

Whoops.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#87 Jun 14 2014 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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Pretty much any cards from 1993-1994 are still very valuable if they're in good condition and black bordered, from $40ish to over $5000, or several tens of thousands if it's a perfect Alpha or Beta Black Lotus, there's one for sale for the measly price of $100,000.
#88 Jun 14 2014 at 3:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have an old beta edition Consecrate Land floating around here and apparently I could get upwards of $3 or $4 for it!
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#89 Jun 14 2014 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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Sometimes I am still surprised by how ridiculously bad alpha and beta cards can be. that card was printed alongside Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Mind Twist, Balance and whatnot.
#90 Jun 14 2014 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
It would need to say "Island" in the 'type' field. For example, Overgrown Tomb says "Land - Swamp Forest" versus Temple of Malady simply says "Land". A card that said "All Forests Tap for One Extra G" would only affect the former and not the latter.

Volcanic Island is just a "Land" and doesn't count as an Island for effects like High Tide, Islandwalk or keeping your Sea Serpents alive. Old basic lands don't say their type on them but they're considered to match the updated text of the new basic lands.

Edited, Jun 14th 2014 3:51pm by Jophiel


I've never used them. But the text on the Volcanic Island says "Counts as both islands and mountains and is affected by spells that affect either." And I have no idea where my cards are at (if I still have them) but I thought all Land types just said "Land". Of course, I played a while ago (Right around the end of Mirage, to the release of Tempest, I think), so they may have changed things. I know they were changing all the Types and got messed up a lot of stuff, like Interrupts (Still don't know why they got rid of those, it made Counterspell a crappy card, since it no longer cut in front of the stack... and still cost more mana.) unless the changed it since then, and interrupts are back, I don't know...
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#91 Jun 14 2014 at 4:10 PM Rating: Good
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No interrupts since they did the same as instants as the last thing cast resolves first, 6th Edition had a huge overhaul on rules to clean up things and introduced the stack as a way of handling almost everything. M10, I think, had another overhaul where damage was taken off the stack and is now just something that happens and can't be reacted to.

Over time a lot of card types, especially creatures have gotten smoothing over since tribes have gotten more important (changing Lord Of Atlantis from a lord that gives all merfolk +1/+1 and islandwalk to a Merfolk Lord that gives all other merfolk +1/+1 and islandwalk and things like that).
#92 Jun 14 2014 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
No interrupts since they did the same as instants as the last thing cast resolves first, 6th Edition had a huge overhaul on rules to clean up things and introduced the stack as a way of handling almost everything. M10, I think, had another overhaul where damage was taken off the stack and is now just something that happens and can't be reacted to.


I always thought that Interrupts originally could only be interrupted by other interrupts. Instances couldn't stack ahead of an Interrupt. I always assumed that was why Counterspell cost more than other counter spell spells that were Instants. At least, that's how I remember the rules as explained to me by the people to taught me to play.
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#93 Jun 14 2014 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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Nope, interrupts and instants were different before 6th edition because there was no stack back then. It made the game a lot more clunky.

And counterspell is the cheapest hard counter that I know of short of an alternative casting cost Force Of Will or more narrow cards like Red Elemental Blast that only counter blue spells.
#94 Jun 14 2014 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
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My memory is fuzzy on the whole thing. I just thought there was another blue counter spell that cost 1 less than Counterspell. Seems I'm wrong.

Seems that my friends and I throughout Junior High and High School must have combined the old rules with the new stack rules to make our own rule set. Instants were general spells, put on the stack, Last Played, First resolved. Sorcery spells couldn't be cast as Instants, all the instances currently on the Stack resolved before Sorcery spells. Interrupts were treated as a secondary stack that resolved first.

Maybe that was just the older kids taking advantage of us with their old card sets full of Interrupts...
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#95 Jun 14 2014 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
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I think it worked like that before 6th edition but backk then I think all counterspells were interrupts. After 6th edition released interrupts essentially no longer existed.

I might be wrong about some of that though, I only started playing around when the Urza and Masqued block were released and I didn't play competitively until much later.
#96 Jun 14 2014 at 6:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Sometimes I am still surprised by how ridiculously bad alpha and beta cards can be

They still occasionally print terribly broken cards, they're just less obviously broken because the game is better understood now and things like card advantage are evaluated appropriately (usually...JTMS aside) and no one thinks healing salve balances ancestral recall. I'm not sure the way they "fix" things by printing more effective "hate" that are sometimes almost card specific is better. You'd think they could play-test more effectively. They printed Deathrite Shaman like 18 months ago.
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#97 Jun 14 2014 at 11:18 PM Rating: Good
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Jace (and stoneforge+batterskull) was kind of a big thing to miss but it is damn hard to playtest the game, especially when it comes tothe eternal formats due to the number of cards and card combinations involved, I'm not shocked that they didn't figure out how big a player Deathrite Shaman would become in the modern metagame.

And the amount of cards on banlists is actually pretty low, all things considered.
#98 Jun 15 2014 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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So this deck is currently rocking a pretty big tournament, it's maybe $50 if you replace the Mutavault with a mountain and it's honestly really, really good because anyone not prepared to deal with a insane aggro deck is going to lose.

Also Joph, this is the kind of deck that can run on 17 lands because out of the 43 cards in his main board 33 cost 1 mana and 10 cost 2 mana (the mutavault is boarded in whenever the curve is upped after boarding). It's incredibly fragile to Golgari Charm and Drown In Sorrow but in a metagame ruled by lands that come into play tapped or deal their owner 2 damage it's a case of either your opponent mulligans to those cards or they die.
#99 Jun 15 2014 at 1:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Honestly, my deck ran fine on land except for a single match. Eventually, statistics are going to catch up with you (or poor shuffling, I suppose). I'll throw another land into there since I thought I had 18 but it doesn't need 21+ land.

My problem wasn't that I didn't get enough land, it was that I drew NO lands for the first five turns (including my initial hand). I should have called a mulligan on the hand except I just assumed I'd get a plains in my first draw. I had plenty of one drops to put down once I finally got a Plains to come out but a 5-turn delay was obviously too much. The deck you linked has the same number of lands and hence the same exact chance of the same thing happening. Difference is, he hopefully would have made the mulligan call.

Edited, Jun 15th 2014 2:26pm by Jophiel
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#100 Jun 15 2014 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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18 lands is fine if you don't want more than 3 lands in play as you almost have to mulligan hands with 3 lands in a deck as low to the ground as the one I linked, the guy who built it also just won $10,000 with the deck.

There's a really good article about mana cost and mana sources and chances on how it works, I should look that up again.

Anyway, my point about the land was that while you can probably function on 18 lands it's difficult to get to casting 2 or 3 spells per turn on that reliably if you don't have almost all 1 mana spells and when you're fighting with just small creatures you need to get to a place where you're casting more than 1 a turn as soon as possible as that's how you're going to beat the removal in the format (and win before Supreme Verdict or Planar Cleansing beats you).

Edited, Jun 15th 2014 9:37pm by Aethien
#101 Jun 15 2014 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Anyway, my point about the land was that while you can probably function on 18 lands it's difficult to get to casting 2 or 3 spells per turn on that reliably...

That's fine. This is becoming one of those amusing situations where I'm telling you what I've actually experienced and you're insisting on what you think I should be experiencing.

I had no mana issues throughout the night aside from a single, statistically poor opening hand that I should have dropped. If anything, the only "land issues" I had was drawing Plains I didn't need due to the low mana curve of the deck and each land after the first four or so usually a wasted draw since by that time I've already cast most of my opening hand and am playing with maybe one or two cards held situationally (Banishing Light, Brave the Elements). I spent more time frowning at the fact that I drew a land instead of a "good" card than I did spent frowning at cards I couldn't cast due to land issues.

Quote:
he guy who built it also just won $10,000 with the deck.

With a deck that, again, had the exact same statistical chance of getting no lands in the opening hand and next five turns as my deck has.

Of course, I'm not playing for $10,000 -- I'm playing to have an enjoyable four hours out and hang with my kid. The mid-tier people are more fun than the Desecration Demon/Pack Rat netdeckers in the top spots anyway Smiley: wink2 I pay my six bucks, get a $3.99 booster or two back at the end of the night and call it a couple bucks well spent.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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