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Do Corporations 'Believe'?Follow

#1 Mar 24 2014 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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Hobby Lobby provides Health Insurance to it's employees. In 2012 the corporation sued the US DHHS because some of the contraception requirements of the ACA go against it's religious beliefs.

Funny thing is, prior to ACA the insurance plan provided by Hobby Lobby to it's employees included the very contraception's that it's now suing over. I guess it's only blasphemous because - you know 'Obama'.

Also..precedence?

motherjones wrote:
The most well-publicized and controversial element of the case is Hobby Lobby's assertion that a for-profit corporation can have the constitutionally protected right to the free exercise of religion. It's a strange notion, but the court opened the door to this argument when it ruled in Citizens United that a corporation has First Amendment rights. So now the justices will have to consider whether corporations can pray, believe in an afterlife, and thus, be absolved of ACA's contraception mandate. But that's hardly the only thorny issue the court has to grapple with.


SCOTUS hears the case tomorrow.....

STORY

Edited, Mar 24th 2014 6:57pm by Elinda
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#2 Mar 24 2014 at 11:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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But no problem paying for Viagra and such.
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#3 Mar 24 2014 at 11:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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No. Corporations are not sentient entities and therefore can not "believe" anything because they are not capable of conscious thought. The people within a corporation can, but not the corporation itself.

Why any legal system would entertain such a ridiculous idea is beyond me.
#4 Mar 24 2014 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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If you're going to treat corporations as people for purposes of law, then its a straight trip into this murky water. It shouldn't be surprising at all that these sorts of questions crop up.

The question isn't whether or not a corporation is capable of having a belief, it's the question of whether or not the government has to treat them as if they do.
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#5 Mar 24 2014 at 12:29 PM Rating: Excellent
I go with no, because a public corporation having a religion that can dictate the medical needs of its employees is one step away from the public corporation having a religion being able to dictate the religion of its employees.

It's a shame, because Hobby Lobby's 365 day Christmas section is a godsend for cosplayers.
#6 Mar 24 2014 at 12:38 PM Rating: Decent
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If they have first amendment rights wouldn't that entitle them to the rest of amendments as well?
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#7 Mar 24 2014 at 12:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
If they have first amendment rights wouldn't that entitle them to the rest of amendments as well?

I think we're still within the first amendment - freedom of speech (Citizen's United) and freedom to practice religion.

When we give corporations the right to bear arms and have militias, I'm moving to Aethien's house.
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#8 Mar 24 2014 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
If they have first amendment rights wouldn't that entitle them to the rest of amendments as well?

I think we're still within the first amendment - freedom of speech (Citizen's United) and freedom to practice religion.

When we give corporations the right to bear arms and have militias, I'm moving to Aethien's house.


I'd say you're better off just letting Google microchip you. The Nordic nations don't stand a chance there.
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#9 Mar 24 2014 at 1:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
If they have first amendment rights wouldn't that entitle them to the rest of amendments as well?

Hobby Lobby Militia Defenders of Christ!

It's only a matter of time before we recognize a corporation's right to gay marry.
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#10 Mar 24 2014 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
If they have first amendment rights wouldn't that entitle them to the rest of amendments as well?

Hobby Lobby Militia Defenders of Christ!

It's only a matter of time before we recognize a corporation's right to gay marry.


I, for one, can't wait until the Apple-Google rivalry turns out to be one of misplaced sexual anxiety.

I'm sure the fanfiction already exists.
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#11 Mar 24 2014 at 2:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory the Fussy wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
If they have first amendment rights wouldn't that entitle them to the rest of amendments as well?

Hobby Lobby Militia Defenders of Christ!

It's only a matter of time before we recognize a corporation's right to gay marry.


I, for one, can't wait until the Apple-Google rivalry turns out to be one of misplaced sexual anxiety.

I'm sure the fanfiction already exists.


It does.
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#12 Mar 24 2014 at 2:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory the Fussy wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
If they have first amendment rights wouldn't that entitle them to the rest of amendments as well?

I think we're still within the first amendment - freedom of speech (Citizen's United) and freedom to practice religion.

When we give corporations the right to bear arms and have militias, I'm moving to Aethien's house.


I'd say you're better off just letting Google microchip you. The Nordic nations don't stand a chance there.
The Netherlands isn't a Nordic country. Not that we stand a better chance.

Also, I don't have a spare bed so you'd have to share space with the cats and they're mean.
#13 Mar 24 2014 at 2:46 PM Rating: Default
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Yodabunny wrote:
No. Corporations are not sentient entities and therefore can not "believe" anything because they are not capable of conscious thought. The people within a corporation can, but not the corporation itself.

Why any legal system would entertain such a ridiculous idea is beyond me.


You answered your own question. No one's seriously arguing that the corporation itself "believes". It's a silly strawman. The question is about the corporation as an extension of those who "own" it (majority shareholders, or in this case the Green family, since I believe this isn't a publicly traded company). The question is about whether the property and free speech rights of those who invested in the corporation extend to being able to make decisions about the operations of the corporation.

What's absurd is that anyone thinks that an owners rights *don't* extend to the business(es) they run. No one would deny that if I spend my own money starting a business, that I get to decide all the details about that business. What products it sells. What the decor looks like. What locations I open. All are free choices that I, as the owner/operator of said business get to make. But suddenly if I hold religious beliefs, I'm not allowed to express them in my business?

Of course I am. And in this case (as in a few others) no one has said that the couldn't choose to close their stores on Sunday, or open their stores with a prayer, or openly express their religious beliefs within the operation of their business. Yet suddenly, magically, along comes Obamacare, and that all gets chucked out the window? That seems odd.

To be fair, this whole question wouldn't even exist if the Court had ruled correctly on the mandates in the first place. But here we are anyway.
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#14 Mar 24 2014 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
No one would deny that if I spend my own money starting a business, that I get to decide all the details about that business. What products it sells. What the decor looks like. What locations I open. All are free choices that I, as the owner/operator of said business get to make. But suddenly if I hold religious beliefs, I'm not allowed to express them in my business?
Except you're comparing different things, but I'm sure you know that and we're just supposed to kind of ignore it because it sounded just so good.

Anyway, nothing more amusing than using religion to discriminate and play the victim card all at the same time. So go on, it's what you do.
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#15 Mar 24 2014 at 3:11 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
No one would deny that if I spend my own money starting a business, that I get to decide all the details about that business. What products it sells. What the decor looks like. What locations I open. All are free choices that I, as the owner/operator of said business get to make. But suddenly if I hold religious beliefs, I'm not allowed to express them in my business?
Except you're comparing different things, but I'm sure you know that and we're just supposed to kind of ignore it because it sounded just so good.


Huh? What different things? I'm allowed to decide to paint the walls of my business with bible passages, print "God Bless You" on my receipts, and open each workday with a prayer, but I'm not allowed to decide whether to provide contraceptives to my employees?

That seems to be exactly on point to this discussion.

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Anyway, nothing more amusing than using religion to discriminate and play the victim card all at the same time. So go on, it's what you do.


I'm free to discriminate with regards to the use of my own property to any degree not specifically excluded by the constitution. I get that "discrimination" has become this magical talisman of power, but it doesn't really have the broad meaning you're ascribing to it. Somewhere between "I get to do anything I want", and "the government can force me to do anything it wants" is a happy middle. So how about instead of simplifying this down to "OMG! Discrimination" we actually make some effort to determine where that middle ground should be?
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#16 Mar 24 2014 at 3:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
That seems to be exactly on point to this discussion.
Wrong, but you're not going to get it right
gbaji wrote:
So how about instead of simplifying this down to "OMG! Discrimination" we actually make some effort to determine where that middle ground should be?
How about stop pretending the argument you're making is actually complicated?
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#17 Mar 24 2014 at 3:18 PM Rating: Excellent
You can have prayers every morning, but you can't force your employees to attend them, nor fire them for skipping.

And you can believe anything you want about contraceptives, but you can't say one employee's medical condition is less worthy of treatment than another employee's condition, which is what you're saying when you'll cover thyroid medicine or insulin but not contraceptives (which are, as I've repeatedly said, used for medical purposes other than preventing pregnancy because they're more effective than anything else at treating some hormonal imbalances.)

Edited, Mar 24th 2014 5:22pm by Catwho
#18 Mar 24 2014 at 3:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
What's absurd is that anyone thinks that an owners rights *don't* extend to the business(es) they run.

Of course they don't Businesses are regulated differently than people. As well they should be.
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And in this case (as in a few others) no one has said that the couldn't choose to close their stores on Sunday, or open their stores with a prayer, or openly express their religious beliefs within the operation of their business.

None of those violate existing law. Refusing to accommodate the provisions of the health care law does.
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#19 Mar 24 2014 at 3:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Funny thing is, prior to ACA the insurance plan provided by Hobby Lobby to its employees included the very contraceptives that it's now suing over. I guess it's only blasphemous because - you know 'Obama'.


This.
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#20 Mar 24 2014 at 3:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:

What's absurd is that anyone thinks that an owners rights *don't* extend to the business(es) they run. No one would deny that if I spend my own money starting a business, that I get to decide all the details about that business. What products it sells. What the decor looks like. What locations I open. All are free choices that I, as the owner/operator of said business get to make. But suddenly if I hold religious beliefs, I'm not allowed to express them in my business?

Of course I am. And in this case (as in a few others) no one has said that the couldn't choose to close their stores on Sunday, or open their stores with a prayer, or openly express their religious beliefs within the operation of their business. Yet suddenly, magically, along comes Obamacare, and that all gets chucked out the window? That seems odd.

We already have cases where federal laws can trump an owners views. Can an owner pay somebody 10 cents an hour because they feel paying more is the Devil's work? Give an employee 16 hour shifts without any breaks because idle hands and all?
#21gbaji, Posted: Mar 24 2014 at 4:11 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well, if we pass a law making those things illegal, then they will! See how that's not a good counter? By that argument, why bother having a Supreme Court at all? I mean, we wrote a law saying that posting on online forums is illegal, so doing so violates existing law. I guess we're all just out of luck, right? Oh wait! We have a court which gets to decide if that law is unfair and/or infringes on our rights. Good thing, right?
#22 Mar 24 2014 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
It's the fact
Opinion. It's your opinion yadda yadda yadda.
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#23 Mar 24 2014 at 4:21 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
It's the fact
Opinion. It's your opinion yadda yadda yadda.


Uh? In this case, what I said actually is a fact. Unless you're arguing that the government mandates requiring employers to provide health insurance which includes contraceptives don't really exist? Cause if that was the case, then what the hell are we talking about?
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#24 Mar 24 2014 at 4:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Uh? In this case, what I said actually is a fact.
Oh, we're pretending in this thread context is irrelevant. Got'cha.

Still your opinion, but at least I know how you'll argue the rest of the time.
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#25 Mar 24 2014 at 4:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Well, if we pass a law making those things illegal, then they will!

Then it might be a legitimate point. You'd make more sense arguing that businesses should be allowed to ignore other existing laws on religious grounds rather than making up nonexistent scenarios.
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We have a court which gets to decide if that law is unfair and/or infringes on our rights. Good thing, right?

Unless they rule the way we don't like, then we stomp our feet and say they got it wrong or that it doesn't really count Smiley: laugh
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#26 Mar 24 2014 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
gbaji wrote:
Also, if "paying for my contraception" is really that huge a deal for people, then the market will sort this out all by itself. No need for mandates.


Prior to the ACA, it wasn't just the pills. You're required to have a doctor's prescription to even order them at a pharmacy, and an OB/GYN visit for that purpose can cost $100 or more. On top of the pills, which can cost $30/month without a copay. You're looking at upwards of $500 a year, which can be a squeeze on someone making minimum wage.

Now since wellness visits are 100% covered under the ACA, the visit to the doctor to obtain the prescription is no longer quite so pricey.

Speaking of free market solutions, insurance companies were quite happy to sell contraceptives at their lowest copay prior to the ACA since pregnancy is so friggin expensive. It's a cost savings to them, and that's why they didn't fight the provision that all oral contraceptives had to be covered with no copay. Just the employers who suddenly discovered that their female workers were not fully under their control and freaked out about it.
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