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Meanwhile in the State of Isreal/Palestine(?)Follow

#1 Mar 17 2014 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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Obama has met with P.A. leader Mahmoud Abbas today where they came to a complete agreement that "We're going to have to take some tough political decisions" whatever that is supposed to mean...

In the meantime Israeli P.M. Netanyahu says “We won’t allow the establishment of a Palestinian state so that it will continue the conflict, so it needs to recognize the state of the Jews"...

even though Mr. Abbas has made it quite clear in the past that the Palestinian recognition of Israel as a state is "Not Possible".
Now we have John Kerry who recently said “I think it’s a mistake for some people to be, you know, raising it again and again as the critical decider of their attitude towards the possibility of a state and peace, and we’ve obviously made that clear,”
Which means that America's policy seems to be that Israel should not expect to be recognized as a state in order to make peace with the Palestinians..

I personally don't think that any peace is possible here.. call me a pessimist or call me a realist or call me a Zionist...
If even the US is telling Israel to just accept that your neighbors are just bent on your NON-existence.. just accept that and make "peace". Now I'm well aware that there was some settlement problems.. but it seems to me that Israel has been pretty keen on making concessions to the Palestinian people such as (yes) giving back land.. releasing terrori(excuse me) POWs.. but since Palestinians seem to base the roots of their culture on hating Jews I'm afraid I just don't see any peace happening here.. call me crazy.. It seems to me that the only way that Palestinians would ever accept peace with the Israelis is if the Israelis packed up and moved out of Israel.. which clearly isn't going to happen.. so clearly we have the same old story..

What is peace supposed to look like when your neighbor doesn't recognize your right to exist?
I'm sure many will say lots of things about "apartheid" and "civil rights"... but I daresay that these things were not implemented in a vacuum... If you are confused as to my meaning.. ask the people in Boston last year that had their neighborhoods turned into a police-state for 2 people.
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#2 Mar 17 2014 at 5:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Honestly, the entire world would be better off if we all just agreed to let them fight it out by themselves and then just deal with the winner. It will never happen, but it would be the best way to settle the issue once and for all.
#3 Mar 17 2014 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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It seems like they have pretty much been fighting it out.. but I think that if Israel really wanted to they could really crack down **** Germany style.. though many people claim that is exactly what they are doing..
On the other hand; it is my view that if the roles were reversed that the Palestinians would have the ovens cranked up to 11.

I used to view this situation relative to Ireland circa 1921.. which perhaps, politically, would be apropos.. but then looking at it from a strictly Northern Ireland U.K. perspective.. I realized that once you have people born in raised in a place then that is there home regardless of the originating circumstances. Though I at one point in my life sided myself with the Fenians.. I couldn't justify the continuance of violence in Northern Ireland considering the fact that the people there; even though they have a different culture than the "southern" 26 counties, that the people of N.I. had lived there in their current state for generations.. Once you have generational roots there then it is their legitimate home as much as anyone else that was born on the island.
I used to see people like Arafat like Arab Michael Collinses.. but I can't hold that view any more. It's time to move on.
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#4 Mar 17 2014 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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Meanwhile in stately Wayne Manor ...
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#5 Mar 17 2014 at 5:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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#6 Mar 17 2014 at 6:27 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
What is peace supposed to look like when your neighbor doesn't recognize your right to exist?
I'm sure many will say lots of things about "apartheid" and "civil rights"... but I daresay that these things were not implemented in a vacuum... If you are confused as to my meaning.. ask the people in Boston last year that had their neighborhoods turned into a police-state for 2 people.


As a person from Boston, I can tell you the zero people I know had any issue at all with them shutting the city down for a few hours to hunt down those ******** after the GTA style spree they went on the night before.
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#7 Mar 17 2014 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
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OmegaV wrote:
As a person from Boston, I can tell you the zero people I know had any issue at all with them shutting the city down for a few hours to hunt down those @#%^s after the GTA style spree they went on the night before.


No one minded being forcibly locked in their house at gunpoint? hmmh.
I believe it, though.
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#8 Mar 17 2014 at 8:42 PM Rating: Default
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It's a far more complex issue than most people address, but I do think that there's always going to be a fundamental problem with the Palestinians demanding their own independent state while simultaneously refusing to acknowledge an independent Israeli state. It ultimately makes any claims that "we just want X" to be false because the entire point of refusing to recognize Israel with any borders is because you really want all of it, not just this one part you're asking for today.

And yeah, that is rightly going to be a deal breaker. The Palestinians need to decide what they can live with and go in that direction. Unfortunately, the violence in that area has become so institutionalized and so useful for other parties in the region that even when you can rarely get some Palestinian leaders who are moderate enough to agree to some kind of border setting and go our separate ways sort of solution, they inevitably get deposed in favor of some spin off radial group willing to "fight for the cause".


And yes, there are some parallels with the Irish/English thing. Ultimately, what finally cooled that down was leadership who was both willing to come to a reasonable arrangement and with sufficient power and control to prevent fringe groups from spinning off and continuing the fight. That's ultimately the real danger of conflicts like these. It's really really really hard to end them. And the biggest reason why it worked in Ireland and hasn't in Palestine is that for the most part there were no external enemies of the UK using Irish terrorists as proxies for a broader conflict. If say, there were a host of Catholic nations who were committed to aiding the Irish in their fight and funneling billions of dollars into making sure that fight continues, Belfast would today look a hell of a lot like Gaza.
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#9 Mar 17 2014 at 8:53 PM Rating: Default
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
Now I'm well aware that there was some settlement problems..


Dude.. have you even read anything about the source of the conflict, or are you just paraphrasing you heard some guy said to a drunk chick in a bar ( damn joos! damn ragheads )?

Some settlement problems.. I swear, kids these days, they will be the death of me.
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#10 Mar 17 2014 at 9:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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I had some settlement problems but a nice lawyer dude on TV told me that I could get the cash I needed now.
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#11 Mar 18 2014 at 1:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Summary:

Palestine: Excuse me, you're sitting in my seat.
Israel: I think you'll find I was sitting in it 2,000 years ago.
Palestine: Well can we discuss it? I have nowhere to sit.
Israel: I was bullied as a child, so go away or I'll smash the chair up.
Palestine: Not if I smash it up first...

Rinse & repeat.
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#12 Mar 18 2014 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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angrymnk wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Now I'm well aware that there was some settlement problems..


Dude.. have you even read anything about the source of the conflict, or are you just paraphrasing you heard some guy said to a drunk chick in a bar ( damn joos! damn ragheads )?

Some settlement problems.. I swear, kids these days, they will be the death of me.


LOL
fair enough way to interpret what I said.. of course the entire point of all this is that the Israelis moved into the neighborhood in 1948.. but I'm talking about the building of houses (settlements) on land that supposedly is allotted to Palestinians.. Land that the Israelis gave back after they won the territory militarily but them promised to give back.


Quote:
Palestine: Excuse me, you're sitting in my seat.
Israel: I think you'll find I was sitting in it 2,000 years ago.
Palestine: Well can we discuss it? I have nowhere to sit.
Israel: I was bullied as a child, so go away or I'll smash the chair up.
Palestine: Not if I smash it up first..


That may have been a fitting analogy 60 years ago.. but what's done is done.
At this point it seems like:

Palestine: GTFO
Israel: NO
Palestine: GTFO and DIE
Israel: NOPE
Palestine: GTFO
Israel: NO
Palestine: GTFO and DIE
Israel: NOT GONNA HAPPEN
Palestine: GTFO
Israel: NO
America: Let's figure out a way to get along and I'll make it worth both your whiles
Palestine and Israel: Fine
America: Israel, will you give some of the land back? Palestine, will you stop publicly calling for the extermination of the jew?
Israel: Sure
Palestine: Whatever
Iran: Hey Lebanon, watch this. pssst..hey Palestine.. take this stick and poke Israel
Palestine: OK LOL
Israel: WTF
Palestine: GTFO
Israel: Here, I'll release a bunch of prisoners that we caught trying to kill us.. will that make you happy?
Palestine: YES
Israel: There, prisoners released. Have some more land too. How about some jobs?
Palestine: Who are you again? OH yeah, You're the *******. GTFO
Israel: GFY


Am I missing anything? Should it not be time to accept that they are stuck together?
I mean, I really do understand the whole "pride" thing but it seems that Israeli government seems at least willing to compromise but that the Palestinian government still seems bent on fostering a complete culture of hatred...
People really seem to be confused about this and blame Israel for every... probably because they love to take the side of the 'underdog'... but they want to seem to excuse the behavior of others... just because?? Do they expect Israel to pack up and leave? That really seems to be the only acceptable solution for most people. (next to concentration camps)







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#13 Mar 18 2014 at 10:06 AM Rating: Decent
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You know what, fark em. They need to grow up and get along. If I have to share my country with rednecks and Bible-thumpers then they should just have to deal.
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#14 Mar 18 2014 at 4:37 PM Rating: Default
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Nobby wrote:
Summary:

Palestine: Excuse me, you're sitting in my seat.
Israel: I think you'll find I was sitting in it 2,000 years ago.
Palestine: Well can we discuss it? I have nowhere to sit.
Israel: I was bullied as a child, so go away or I'll smash the chair up.
Palestine: Not if I smash it up first...

Rinse & repeat.


That's about the dumbest and most ridiculously simplistic summary of the issues in that region possible. It's more like this:

Israel: Hey, we need somewhere to sit, and there's like room for 100 chairs in this room, and only 20 people here currently. So we'll build a bunch of chairs so we'll all have plenty of seats to go around.
Palestine: Great. Thanks for building all these new chairs. They're really comfy. We're going to invite all our relatives over to sit in them.
Israel: Um... That's going to make things a bit crowded...
Palestine: Oh. And we don't want to share the 100 chairs you built, so you take 50 and we'll take 50. And we want them in different areas.
Israel: That's going to require moving people around who are already sitting in chairs and mixed together. That makes no sense. Can't we all just sit in whatever chairs we're in right now? There's plenty to go around.
Palestine: Nope. We want our chairs to be ours, so STFU.
Israel: Sigh... Ok. We'll move all our people into the 50 chairs on this side of the room, and you move all your people over here into the 50 chairs on your side then. We still think this is silly, but if it's what you really want...
Palestine: It's what we demand. So get to it!
Israel: Ok. Done. We've moved all our people out of the 50 chairs on your side and they need places to sit, so can you move your folks over now?
Palestine: What? That's crazy! You have no right to force us out of our chairs!!!!
Israel: But... We agreed! WTF!?
Palestine: And since you're being so mean to us, we're going to get our buddies to come in and take all your chairs away! Hahaha! You suckers!
Israel: Ok. We beat up your buddies, took all 100 chairs back, and even took some of their chairs, so what now?
Palestine: Oh crap. That didn't work. Um... Can you please give us our 50 chairs back now?
Israel: No. You've shown you can't be trusted.
Palestine: But now we don't have any chairs at all! sniff. You're just a big meanie. We're going to start blowing up your chairs now!!!

Rinse and repeat. Point is that Israel has repeatedly attempted to give the Palestinians exactly that which they claimed to want, only for the Palestinians to turn around and demand more and more and more, start a fight, get beat, then whine and cry until they get what they want again, then demand more, blow more things up, etc.

The "problem" is 100% the Palestinians fault. Maybe not the individual people, but their leaders certainly are to blame. They have been handed more chances at peace and prosperity than they really deserve.
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#15 Mar 18 2014 at 4:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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hehehe Gbaji must have missed the part where Israel bulldozed all the Palestinian chairs to make room for their own.
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#16 Mar 18 2014 at 6:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Two groups of people want to kill each other over a "traditional homeland" that's devolved into a mostly worthless arid strip of rock while a bunch of quasi-innocent people die in the fighting.

People never cease to impress me.
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#17 Mar 18 2014 at 7:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
hehehe Gbaji must have missed the part where Israel bulldozed all the Palestinian chairs to make room for their own.


Um... No, I didn't, because that didn't happen. Go look up the population number and mix prior to the whole "Zionist homeland" movement. Then come back to this thread once you realize that there was almost no one living in the area until European Zionists came along and started building aqueducts and irrigation systems and settling the now habitable lands that were previously unsettled. I correctly addressed this with the part about a room with 20 chairs but room for 100.

Israel built all those chairs. Yes, even the ones the Palestinians are claiming were theirs all along. The properties the Palestinians are claiming they were ejected from? All existed as a direct result of the Zionist development efforts in the 20th century. You don't really think that those homes and streets existed before then, do you? What happened is that the Jewish folks massively built up the area, benefiting themselves and the people who were living there (a good percentage of which were Jewish as well). They were so successful at this that people started flocking there from the surrounding areas to live there.

Then, after this massive population boom, the Muslims decided they didn't want to live in a "Jewish state", so when the British Mandate was set to end and the nation of Israel would take full control, they insisted on dividing the region into two separate states. So even though the Israelis had more or less built everything that was there and made it possible for so many people to live there in the first place, they agreed to this. Then, literally the day the Mandate ended, the Muslims (now calling themselves Palestinians, a name which previously just applied to all people living in the area) worked with all three surrounding Muslim nations (Syria, Jordan, and Egypt) to attack the new nation of Israel. It didn't work. Israel captured the entire area, and some portions of the other three nations as well.

Despite this, and despite getting directly screwed over every single time they've dealt in good faith with the "Palestinians", Israel has continued to try to find some way to live in peace in that area. They've given away land only to have that land used as staging areas for attacks against them. When the take it back again, they're told they must give it back again (only to have the same thing happen again). They've made land/property swap deals, and have moved their people as required, only to have the other side refuse to do the same. It's happened again, and again, and again. It's just impossible to deal with a group of people who just want you gone. Period. And failing to recognize that and react to that means you will get wiped out.

You have to be wearing amazingly strong antisemitic blinders on to think that this is all Israel's fault. It's just one of those things that I find shocking that anyone actually takes the side of Palestine after all of this. I mean, they don't even pretend that they aren't actively engaged in terrorist actions, nor do they hide their objective to destroy the state of Israel. But somehow, stacked against that, people choose to blame Israel whenever they dare to fight back? That's insane. So folks in Gaza are launching rockets targeting civilian targets in Israel, and that's just peachy, but heaven forbid that an Israeli strike on those rocket emplacements might happen to kill a couple civilians! Wow. Just... wow. Serious blinders going on there.
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#18 Mar 18 2014 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=israel+bulldozing+homes

didn't happen though.

Edited, Mar 18th 2014 10:28pm by rdmcandie
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#19 Mar 19 2014 at 6:54 AM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:

What is peace supposed to look like when your neighbor doesn't recognize your right to exist?
Peace has not been looking peaceful from either side. Rhetoric is just that. I'd not let it define a good guy and a bad guy for me - specially from half a world away. It takes two to tango.

These two countries can be peaceful neighbors but it will never happen as long as the world insists on treating them as merely emblems representational of the East and the West.
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#20 Mar 19 2014 at 7:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wipe them all out, start over.
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#21 Mar 19 2014 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Wipe them all out, start over.

By all you mean all right. Or just the half we don't like?
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#22 Mar 19 2014 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Desert to glass.
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#23 Mar 19 2014 at 10:46 AM Rating: Good
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Wipe them all out, start over.
By all you mean all right. Or just the half we don't like?
No, by all I mean just Steve Guttenberg.
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#24 Mar 19 2014 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Wipe them all out, start over.

By all you mean all right. Or just the half we don't like?

I vote for all. As in, all of humanity. Hopefully the planet's next dominant species doesn't actively try to destroy it, or themselves.
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#25 Mar 19 2014 at 1:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's what surly teenage dinosaurs said too, right before some Russian dinosaurs set off the Asteroid-Attractor Beam to win the Fifth Intercontinental Dino-War.
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#26 Mar 19 2014 at 1:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Clever girl.
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