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Father shoots/kills daughter's boyfriendFollow

#77 Mar 16 2014 at 1:26 PM Rating: Excellent
Almalieque wrote:
The shooting didn't occur because he was in the room, but because he "reached for something". The father felt a threat and started shooting, just like blade runner, Zimmerman and Dunn did.


No. The shooting occurred because he didn't know the kid was there, and then the kid did something he thought was threatening. It is not the same as the Oscar Pistorius case because this guy did not know that the young man was "supposed" to be there (in the sense that he was invited and the daughter did in fact know him).

I don't necessarily disagree with you in regards to common sense and what not, but there is enough of a difference here that you probably shouldn't use it as an example.

And, well, Zimmerman wasn't charged with anything, so that doesn't exactly help your case, either.

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I say again, if that were his wife in the bed with another man (during his normal working hours) or his son in the bed with a girl, people wouldn't view it the same way.


I don't necessarily agree with this.
#78 Mar 16 2014 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
She should be in prison for manslaughter, and her father for second degree murder.
No intent, not premeditated, not occuring during another crime. I didn't call it "criminally negligent homicide" because it sounded spiffy.
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#79 Mar 16 2014 at 1:51 PM Rating: Default
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Belkira wrote:
No. The shooting occurred because he didn't know the kid was there, and then the kid did something he thought was threatening. It is not the same as the Oscar Pistorius case because this guy did not know that the young man was "supposed" to be there (in the sense that he was invited and the daughter did in fact know him).


If that were true, then the kid would have died before ever reaching for anything. The story clearly said that there was an escalation of words followed by the kid "reaching for something", triggering a fear for the father's life. You can't omit facts to support your claim. The father not knowing him or him even being there had nothing to do with the boy reaching for something.

Belkira wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree with you in regards to common sense and what not, but there is enough of a difference here that you probably shouldn't use it as an example.


The similarities make it a good example, the "differences" that you provided are irrelevant for the reasons mentioned above.

Belkira wrote:

And, well, Zimmerman wasn't charged with anything, so that doesn't exactly help your case, either.


1. And that was oh so well received? I'm not debating the actual law, but bemoaning the validity of it.

2. He wasn't charged with anything because he was overcharged with 1st Degree as opposed to 2nd Degree.

Belkira wrote:

I don't necessarily agree with this.


You don't have to. If a man comes home early and sees his wife riding some guy in their bedroom, no one would believe her saying that she didn't know the guy. Likewise, if the father came in and saw his son in the bed with 17 year old girl, no one would believe the son saying that he didn't know her. You would be in complete denial if you support the notion of a 17 year old girl randomly going into teenage boys' rooms at 2 am to rape them while their family is asleep.
#80 Mar 16 2014 at 1:52 PM Rating: Good
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
And, well, Zimmerman wasn't charged with anything, so that doesn't exactly help your case, either.


You can go through a court trial without being charged?
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#81 Mar 16 2014 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
TirithRR wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
And, well, Zimmerman wasn't charged with anything, so that doesn't exactly help your case, either.


You can go through a court trial without being charged?


He was found not guilty, so I thought that meant that he was not actually charged with the crime. My terminology might not be accurate, I don't know.
#82 Mar 16 2014 at 2:02 PM Rating: Default
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
And, well, Zimmerman wasn't charged with anything, so that doesn't exactly help your case, either.


You can go through a court trial without being charged?


He was found not guilty, so I thought that meant that he was not actually charged with the crime. My terminology might not be accurate, I don't know.


I knew what you meant, but you were still wrong.
#83 Mar 16 2014 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
Almalieque wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
And, well, Zimmerman wasn't charged with anything, so that doesn't exactly help your case, either.


You can go through a court trial without being charged?


He was found not guilty, so I thought that meant that he was not actually charged with the crime. My terminology might not be accurate, I don't know.


I knew what you meant, but you were still wrong.


Smiley: lol Somehow, coming from you, I find it difficult to agree...
#84 Mar 16 2014 at 2:07 PM Rating: Default
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Belkira wrote:

Smiley: lol Somehow, coming from you, I find it difficult to agree...


I actually responded on how you were still wrong. In case you missed it.
#85 Mar 16 2014 at 2:10 PM Rating: Excellent
Almalieque wrote:
Belkira wrote:

Smiley: lol Somehow, coming from you, I find it difficult to agree...


I actually responded on how you were still wrong. In case you missed it.


Oh, I saw it. I just didn't see any need to continue the discussion.
#86 Mar 16 2014 at 2:15 PM Rating: Default
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Belkira wrote:

Smiley: lol Somehow, coming from you, I find it difficult to agree...


I actually responded on how you were still wrong. In case you missed it.


Oh, I saw it. I just didn't see any need to continue the discussion.


Just making sureSmiley: grin
#87 Mar 16 2014 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
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The boy reaching for something could've easily been him adjusting something, not reaching for a gun, but perhaps reaching for something else. The father is a bad man, with no sympathy for discomfort in the nether regions, I think.
#88 Mar 16 2014 at 4:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Demoncard wrote:
The boy reaching for something could've easily been him adjusting something, not reaching for a gun, but perhaps reaching for something else.
Could have, but when you've got an intruder in your child's room in the middle of the night and less than half a second to decide whether that intruder is reaching for a weapon or scratching his ***, do you believe it is a reasonable conclusion he could be going for a weapon or to attack? It doesn't matter that after the fact it was discovered that the daughter invited him or that he wasn't attacking.
Demoncard wrote:
The father is a bad man
Yeah, how dare he defend his child.
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#89 Mar 16 2014 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kavekk wrote:
I feel like we're just shuffling the corpses on the Titanic, here. Surely guns can solve this is a non-violent way?


Ok, They both shoot the daughter.

Then we don't have to listen to "My heart will go on".

I feel like we are making progress here.
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#90 Mar 16 2014 at 5:34 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Demoncard wrote:
The boy reaching for something could've easily been him adjusting something, not reaching for a gun, but perhaps reaching for something else.
Could have, but when you've got an intruder in your child's room in the middle of the night and less than half a second to decide whether that intruder is reaching for a weapon or scratching his ***, do you believe it is a reasonable conclusion he could be going for a weapon or to attack? It doesn't matter that after the fact it was discovered that the daughter invited him or that he wasn't attacking.


Well, it says they were arguing for at least some time before he got shot. So it's not like he only had half a second to decide whether the guy was a danger or not.

I can't imagine what the conversation was that ended with the father deciding the only solution was to shoot the boy dead, though.
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#91 Mar 16 2014 at 6:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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All their arguing means is that there was even more time between the father going into the room and the shooting that the daughter could have vouched for boy. She didn't, so all that time he's still an intruder, and a potential danger. I can't imagine anyone wouldn't consider a random guy in their daughter's room to not be a threat. At the end the boy reached for something, at that point the father had to make a decision.

An innocent person died, and that's bad. Got it. But the father is an innocent victim here, too. He has to live with all this. Nothing in the situation suggests he didn't reasonably believe his family was in immediate danger of harm. Strange, argumentative person in child's room late at night reaching for something. I don't know about you, but that's really not a risk I'd be willing to take.
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#92 Mar 16 2014 at 6:34 PM Rating: Good
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Still, I can't imagine what the conversation was that ended with the father deciding the only option was to shoot the boy dead. Between all three of them, obviously some very bad decisions were made, and by all three parties. But it still seems to me that what ever conversation occurred, a solution besides shooting could have been reached.
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#93 Mar 16 2014 at 6:39 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
An innocent person died, and that's bad.

lolgaxe wrote:
He has to live with all this.

lolgaxe wrote:
not a risk I'd be willing to take

Is there some sort of pamphlet of standardized responses you're given along with a firearm?

Edited, Mar 16th 2014 7:40pm by Allegory
#94 Mar 16 2014 at 6:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
Is there some sort of pamphlet of standardized responses you're given along with a firearm?
They're next to the "All Guns Are Evil" books.
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#95 Mar 16 2014 at 6:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
An innocent person died, and that's bad.

lolgaxe wrote:
He has to live with all this.

lolgaxe wrote:
not a risk I'd be willing to take

Is there some sort of pamphlet of standardized responses you're given along with a firearm?

Edited, Mar 16th 2014 7:40pm by Allegory
No that's what the army's brainwashing program is for.
#96 Mar 16 2014 at 7:39 PM Rating: Default
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Tirith wrote:
Well, it says they were arguing for at least some time before he got shot. So it's not like he only had half a second to decide whether the guy was a danger or not.

I can't imagine what the conversation was that ended with the father deciding the only solution was to shoot the boy dead, though.


Exactly. Rapist with weapons don't engage in conversations when confronted. The elapsed time only proves that she was lying based on her behavior. If I came in my daughter's room and she came running towards me crying, shouting for help, I wouldn't ask her if she knew the guy. Even if I knew the guy, it wouldn't matter at that point. Obviously the situation alone wasn't convincing if he had to ask her anything.

Also, assuming that the father came in with the gun drawn, the first thing the rapist would have done would be to pull out his weapon, not try talk it out.

There was no threat. He was merely living any father's worst nightmare and acted emotionally as opposed to logically.
#97 Mar 16 2014 at 8:13 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Allegory wrote:
Is there some sort of pamphlet of standardized responses you're given along with a firearm?
They're next to the "All Guns Are Evil" books.

Thought you might be a little more self conscious about jumping to conclusions in this thread. Live and learn, or die and learn nothing sometimes I guess. The problem with trite comments is that you're missing the point. A veneer of regret at the situation doesn't matter. The ridiculous assertion that somehow he's going to feel bad about this for more than a week, and also that any grief on his part somehow improves the situation is meaningless. Justifying his choices as appropriate is meaningless. The outcome is undesirable, therefore the process is undesirable. Not that people dying from gunshot is especially common in America despite its disproportionate prevalence for our economic status, but at least with cancer you don't have people advocating for the cancer.

But hey, anyone pointing out the impotency of what you've said must just hate guns right?
#98 Mar 16 2014 at 8:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
But hey, anyone pointing out the impotency of what you've said must just hate guns right?
Well yeah, since apparently my points can't possibly be about the legal process and nothing about guns.
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#99 Mar 16 2014 at 9:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eh, I've argued on the gun control side as much as anyone (and, really, Lolgaxe has argued for regulation as well) but I can't get all that worked up about this. ****** situation, maybe something to be learned but it doesn't ring the same alarms as someone playing vigilante cop on his neighborhood patrol or shooting someone in the movie theater over a cellphone.
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#100 Mar 17 2014 at 3:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hand in your Liberal card. You've joined us on the conservative dark side. There's no cookies/cake in the corner, because you need to pay for that **** yourself.
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#101 Mar 17 2014 at 5:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Tirith wrote:
Well, it says they were arguing for at least some time before he got shot. So it's not like he only had half a second to decide whether the guy was a danger or not.

I can't imagine what the conversation was that ended with the father deciding the only solution was to shoot the boy dead, though.


Exactly. Rapist with weapons don't engage in conversations when confronted. The elapsed time only proves that she was lying based on her behavior. If I came in my daughter's room and she came running towards me crying, shouting for help, I wouldn't ask her if she knew the guy. Even if I knew the guy, it wouldn't matter at that point. Obviously the situation alone wasn't convincing if he had to ask her anything.

Also, assuming that the father came in with the gun drawn, the first thing the rapist would have done would be to pull out his weapon, not try talk it out.

There was no threat. He was merely living any father's worst nightmare and acted emotionally as opposed to logically.


I don't know about you, but when I am reliving my worst nightmare ( no coffee in the morning ), I act emotionally as opposed to logically; most people do.
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