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As an evil leftist, I disapprove of toll roads. There's no way for me to monetise the bridge, in other words; you can keep it.
Sell it for scrap?
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
gbaji wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Quote:
he broader question is the degree to which a government is "authoritarian". How much power does it wield directly over the people. And in that way, communism must always be authoritarian. The degree to which the government controls industry (command economy) must also correspond to a degree of authoritarianism. While capitalism is no guarantee of a less-authoritarian government, it at least allows for it, where communism does not.
No, the syndie breeds are not really authoritarian.
Sigh. Smash's comment aside, Syndicalism is no less authoritarian, it's just tailored to make it look less so to the uninformed masses. Actually, let me be more clear: In theory it would be less so, just like in theory Communisim would have no government control over industry either. The problem is that, just as with communism, no attempt to actually implement syndicalism has ever existed that didn't involve the government more or less directly controlling and enforcing the syndicates.
It's just like claiming that public sector unions are really about the will of the workers. Yeah. And I've got a bridge to sell ya!
Um communism is the complete removal of any private control of industry, it is in fact 100% state control of all industry.
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.
Sigh. Smash's comment aside, Syndicalism is no less authoritarian, it's just tailored to make it look less so to the uninformed masses.
As I was saying...
Disclaimer:
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
Um communism is the complete removal of any private control of industry, it is in fact 100% state control of all industry.
Technically, communism is complete control of all industry by the workers of each of those industries (the whole proletariat thing, right?). The problem is that in the real world, the only way communism has ever been implemented has been via government putting the proletariat in charge, which really means putting people in charge of the proletariat, which really means complete government control of industry.
Same deal with the syndicate idea. Sure, in theory, private groups would work together (always envisioned as unions of course), to control and manage industry. But in practice, just as proletariat control of industry only happens if the government puts them in control, syndicate control of industry requires the same thing. Which ultimately means the government chooses who runs industry. Which leads you to government control of industry.
Syndicalism is just a slightly different attempt to fool people into thinking that you can somehow impose heavy government control over industry yet somehow still convince people that "the people" are in control. The folks who think syndicalism is anything other than authoritarianism with a different label are the same folks who always love to try to convince you that "the government is the people" (which I've always found to be a monumentally useless thing to say).
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Smasharoo wrote:
Sigh. Smash's comment aside, Syndicalism is no less authoritarian, it's just tailored to make it look less so to the uninformed masses.
As I was saying...
You were admitting to be uninformed?
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
gbaji wrote:
Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
Um communism is the complete removal of any private control of industry, it is in fact 100% state control of all industry.
Technically, communism is complete control of all industry by the workers of each of those industries (the whole proletariat thing, right?). The problem is that in the real world, the only way communism has ever been implemented has been via government putting the proletariat in charge, which really means putting people in charge of the proletariat, which really means complete government control of industry.
No, industry is controlled by the state, Its that simple. Whether the people control the state democratically or if it is an autocracy, it is all controlled by the state. There is no private enterprise. Everything in Industry is controlled by the state. Just as every other aspect of society. Its why its called communism. Commune. Community. Communism. It is controlled by everyone, for everyone. (whether the people get to choose their representation is an entirely different matter completely.)
Edited, Mar 5th 2014 6:54pm by rdmcandie
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.
Jophiel wrote:
There is a surprising* number of **** fakes of Yulia Tymoshenko when you image search her. And many of them are pretty funny since she always has some fairly stoic expression as she's getting railed in the butt or showing you her fake boobs.
*Well, I guess I shouldn't be 'surprised'...
*Well, I guess I shouldn't be 'surprised'...
With that braid halo I'd like to see a mashup of her mixed with Leia ****.
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Technically, communism is complete control of all industry by the workers of each of those industries (the whole proletariat thing, right?). The problem is that in the real world, the only way communism has ever been implemented has been via government putting the proletariat in charge, which really means putting people in charge of the proletariat, which really means complete government control of industry.
No, industry is controlled by the state, Its that simple. Whether the people control the state democratically or if it is an autocracy, it is all controlled by the state. There is no private enterprise. Everything in Industry is controlled by the state. Just as every other aspect of society. Its why its called communism. Commune. Community. Communism. It is controlled by everyone, for everyone. (whether the people get to choose their representation is an entirely different matter completely.)
Um... Which is why it's controlled "by the people" collectively. You even mentioned the etymology involved in the word "communism". But, as I already said, communism only exists if the government imposes it. Thus, "the people" ends out being "the government". Go read some Marx to get an idea of how communism was envisioned and contrast it to how communism ended out being implemented.
Same deal with syndicalism. No market will naturally evolve to groups of organized labor taking ownership and control over all industries in an economy. It's never happened. The only way it does happen is if government steps in and makes it happen, either by creating the syndicates themselves, or rigging the law to force industries to unionize and then further rigging the law to force the unions to all work together (invariably under direct government control).
Go read up on the Liverpool dock workers strike if you want a great example of how this sort of public/private blending of union and business ends out not really being good for the workers. The problem is that the folks running the unions and the folks running the businesses all end out being the same small group of people, and ultimately all sit at the government's table to make deals. In theory, a syndicate system could work. But in practice, when you put that much power in the hands of a few, government will always step in and make sure it's really in charge. Every, single, time.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
You were admitting to be uninformed?
Yup, that's exactly what happened. Me, and thousands of other people who have spent significant portions of careers studying socio-political theory have all been duped by something your childlike intellect realized from a cursory skimming of Wikipedia. That's absolutely it. Makes perfect sense. I mean, why not, it happens all the time, right?
There's an old saying: Meet an ******* at 9 am and you met an *******. Go through the whole day meeting only ********, YOUR the *******. There's a corollary here. See through an attempt to manipulate you at 9 am and you probably avoided being manipulated. See through attempts to manipulate you all day, you're probably a paranoid moron. Sometimes the emperor does have clothes, and assuming he doesn't without looking is as idiotic as believing he does because you were told to.
Disclaimer:
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
So enough about me. How about you provide real world examples of syndicalism which do not involve authoritarian government control of the syndicates?
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
What I'm getting from this is that very few people in this thread understand syndicalism.
Good thing I didn't try to bring in the whole anti-monarchist anarchism-syndicalists, ala Spain.
If you only accept authoritarian, centralized political units as fulfilling the definition of an economic system, it's really going to warp you perceptions.
The one thing A-S is really bad at (even worse than democracies) is warfare.
Good thing I didn't try to bring in the whole anti-monarchist anarchism-syndicalists, ala Spain.
If you only accept authoritarian, centralized political units as fulfilling the definition of an economic system, it's really going to warp you perceptions.
The one thing A-S is really bad at (even worse than democracies) is warfare.
Just as Planned.
So enough about me. How about you provide real world examples of syndicalism which do not involve authoritarian government control of the syndicates?
To what end? Seriously, what's the best possible outcome for me? I prove you completely and utterly wrong and you insist you were misunderstood? Happens daily without any extra effort on my part. You don't understand this. It's not a question, it's transparently obvious. It seems fairly likely you're incapable of understanding it, which is OK. People have limitations, I can't draw. My 1 year old is better at taking a crayon and representing life on paper than I am. It's all right that he probably has a better grasp of political philosophy than you do. People are different. You probably have a lovely singing voice or something.
Disclaimer:
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
Quote:
Good thing I didn't try to bring in the whole anti-monarchist anarchism-syndicalists, ala Spain.
Wow, way to gloat about some ******** knowledge, Time. You can be so Aragont sometimes.
Wow, way to gloat about some bullsh*t knowledge, Time. You can be so Aragont sometimes.
Nah, if you grow up around here, you can't throw a rock without hitting Chomsky giving a talk or some old timer telling you about how great the wobbly hall was.
Nah, if you grow up around here, you can't throw a rock without hitting Chomsky giving a talk or some old timer telling you about how great the wobbly hall was.
Disclaimer:
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
Smasharoo wrote:
So enough about me. How about you provide real world examples of syndicalism which do not involve authoritarian government control of the syndicates?
To what end?
Because if you want to support the claim that syndicalism is not innately authoritarian in the real world versus in theory, it would go a long way if you could actually point to a single case where this is actually true. Remember, I was responding to TLW's claim that "syndie breeds are not really authoritarian". Not, "will not be", or "in theory could not be", he said "are not".
Seems reasonable to ask for an example of this then, right?
Quote:
Seriously, what's the best possible outcome for me?
If you are actually right, you get to prove you are. Even if you don't think you can convince me, it would certainly go a long ways towards convincing anyone else reading this who maybe isn't sure who's right. Refusing to do so is usually going to be taken as an admission that you're wrong, so the most likely reason to do so is if you know you are wrong, but are banking that maybe if you refuse to do so and muddle the conversation enough, and maybe succeed in changing the subject, you can get out of the conversation with some people not realizing this. I mean, that is what you're doing, right? You're not arguing, you're debating. You and I both know that most people don't know the difference.
Edited, Mar 5th 2014 5:33pm by gbaji
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Timelordwho wrote:
If you only accept authoritarian, centralized political units as fulfilling the definition of an economic system, it's really going to warp you perceptions.
I accept that authoritarian, centralized political units sometimes succeed in convincing their populations that they're not. Usually by adopting labels created to describe hypothetical political systems which don't (or even can't) exist in the real world.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
gbaji wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
[quote]Seriously, what's the best possible outcome for me?
If you are actually right, you get to prove you are. Even if you don't think you can convince me, it would certainly go a long ways towards convincing anyone else reading this who maybe isn't sure who's right.
Really? Anyone who doesn't already know this isn't worth trying to sway.
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
RT
Prvada
The snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were allegedly hired by Maidan leaders, according to a leaked phone conversation between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign affairs minister, which has emerged online.
GlobalResearch
DailyK
Reuters
Leaked Audio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8
Who to believe who to believe. sh*tstorms are awesome.
e(cleaned up a bit)
Edited, Mar 5th 2014 9:48pm by rdmcandie
Quote:
Estonian foreign ministry has confirmed the recording of his conversation with EU foreign policy chief is authentic. Urmas Paet said that snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were hired by Maidan leaders.
Prvada
Quote:
According to what has appeared as a leaked telephone conversation between the Estonian Foreign Minister and Catherine Ashton, EU external affairs head, the European Union knew that the snipers firing on crowds in Kiev were not sent by Yanukovich, but rather from the faces behind the coup, which the west supports.
The snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were allegedly hired by Maidan leaders, according to a leaked phone conversation between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign affairs minister, which has emerged online.
GlobalResearch
Quote:
“There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition,†Paet said during the conversation.
“I think we do want to investigate. I mean, I didn’t pick that up, that’s interesting. Gosh,†Ashton answered.
“I think we do want to investigate. I mean, I didn’t pick that up, that’s interesting. Gosh,†Ashton answered.
DailyK
Quote:
Paet:
“There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition,â€
Ashton:
“I think we do want to investigate. I mean, I didn’t pick that up, that’s interesting. Gosh,â€
Paet:
“And second, what was quite disturbing, this same Olga [Bogomolets] told as well that all the evidence shows that the people who were killed by snipers from both sides, among policemen and then people from the streets, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides,â€
Ashton:
“Well, yeah…that’s, that’s terrible.â€
Paet:
“So that she then also showed me some photos she said that as a medical doctor she can say that it is the same handwriting, the same type of bullets, and it’s really disturbing that now the new coalition, that they don’t want to investigate what exactly happened,â€
“There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition,â€
Ashton:
“I think we do want to investigate. I mean, I didn’t pick that up, that’s interesting. Gosh,â€
Paet:
“And second, what was quite disturbing, this same Olga [Bogomolets] told as well that all the evidence shows that the people who were killed by snipers from both sides, among policemen and then people from the streets, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides,â€
Ashton:
“Well, yeah…that’s, that’s terrible.â€
Paet:
“So that she then also showed me some photos she said that as a medical doctor she can say that it is the same handwriting, the same type of bullets, and it’s really disturbing that now the new coalition, that they don’t want to investigate what exactly happened,â€
Reuters
Quote:
Estonia denied on Wednesday that a leaked telephone call showed that its foreign minister had blamed opponents of Ukraine's deposed president for sniper killings during last month's unrest - as Russian media have suggested.
Leaked Audio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8
Who to believe who to believe. sh*tstorms are awesome.
e(cleaned up a bit)
Edited, Mar 5th 2014 9:48pm by rdmcandie
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.
rdmcandie wrote:
The snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were allegedly hired by Maidan leaders, according to a leaked phone conversation between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign affairs minister, which emerged online.
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
lolgaxe wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
The snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were allegedly hired by Maidan leaders, according to a leaked phone conversation between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign affairs minister, which emerged online.
If everyone had dashcams like they do in russia then that wouldnt be a problem!
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.
gbaji wrote:
Even if you don't think you can convince me, it would certainly go a long ways towards convincing anyone else reading this who maybe isn't sure who's right.
Quote:
IDrownFish, Jophiel, Kastigir, lolgaxe, rdmcandie, Samira, Turin, Anonymous Guests (50)
Think of the anonymous guests, Smash!
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Who to believe who to believe. sh*tstorms are awesome.
e(cleaned up a bit)[/quote]
Interesting.. I am not completely discounting the possibility.. but did the non-Yanukowich forces also kill, kidnap, beat, and otherwise harass the protesters?
What interesting times we live in.
Then again, Amnesty International has documented cases where "pro-government vigilante groups" attacked peaceful protesters.
I am honestly curious now. I wonder if there is any real chance we will get to see past the propaganda, bs, and fog of media war.
Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:29pm by angrymnk
Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:29pm by angrymnk
Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:30pm by angrymnk
Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:30pm by angrymnk
Your soul was made of fists.
Jar the Sam
Jar the Sam
angrymnk wrote:
Interesting.. I am not completely discounting the possibility.. but did the non-Yanukowich forces also kill, kidnap, beat, and otherwise harass the protesters?
What interesting times we live in.
Then again, Amnesty International has documented cases where "pro-government vigilante groups" attacked peaceful protesters.
I am honestly curious now. I wonder if there is any real chance we will get to see past the propaganda, bs, and fog of media war.
Propaganda is both more powerful, and much weaker than it has ever been. For people who just watch evening news, check their local news on the net, hear it on the radio, it is very easy to project opinion. But if you are actually interested in the goings on in the news you can access news from all over the globe written in dozens of different view points. The closer you get to Russia the more intense the pro Russia spin is, the closer you get to America the more intense the pro US spin is. The EU is kinda funny because while it is regarded as an international body internally their news takes on the spin of where it is. For instance the stories from Der Spiegl (German) are more in line with Russian thinking than Le Monde (French) are. Which is why the EU as a whole has been more or less hush hush the last week or two because really its ~30 Different opinions on what is happening.
I read news from every continent and in some cases several regions on that continent I think I am up to 20 different news sources that I read, so I can form my own opinion using all the facts and all the perspectives. Propaganda is wasted on me, because I can find a conflicting perspective in under a second. But millions get hosed by it because they don't really care, and can't be bothered to look into the goings on...they just flick on CNN see some Buzz words and think the sky is falling.
Honestly this situation is not as crazy as everyone is making it out to be....assuming Mr Obama and Mr Putin don't decide to go to war over the Ukraine...which is retarded for either to do as it is essentially Greece 2.0 and no one should want that shackle around their ankle.
Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:51pm by rdmcandie
Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:51pm by rdmcandie
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.
Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
Interesting.. I am not completely discounting the possibility.. but did the non-Yanukowich forces also kill, kidnap, beat, and otherwise harass the protesters?
What interesting times we live in.
Then again, Amnesty International has documented cases where "pro-government vigilante groups" attacked peaceful protesters.
I am honestly curious now. I wonder if there is any real chance we will get to see past the propaganda, bs, and fog of media war.
Propaganda is both more powerful, and much weaker than it has ever been. For people who just watch evening news, check their local news on the net, hear it on the radio, it is very easy to project opinion. But if you are actually interested in the goings on in the news you can access news from all over the globe written in dozens of different view points. The closer you get to Russia the more intense the pro Russia spin is, the closer you get to America the more intense the pro US spin is. The EU is kinda funny because while it is regarded as an international body internally their news takes on the spin of where it is. For instance the stories from Der Spiegl (German) are more in line with Russian thinking than Le Monde (French) are. Which is why the EU as a whole has been more or less hush hush the last week or two because really its ~30 Different opinions on what is happening.
I read news from every continent and in some cases several regions on that continent I think I am up to 20 different news sources that I read, so I can form my own opinion using all the facts and all the perspectives. Propaganda is wasted on me, because I can find a conflicting perspective in under a second. But millions get hosed by it because they don't really care, and can't be bothered to look into the goings on...they just flick on CNN see some Buzz words and think the sky is falling.
Honestly this situation is not as crazy as everyone is making it out to be....assuming Mr Obama and Mr Putin don't decide to go to war over the Ukraine...which is retarded for either to do as it is essentially Greece 2.0 and no one should want that shackle around their ankle.
Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:51pm by rdmcandie
Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:51pm by rdmcandie
You are assuming people are rational ( and good altana, I hope they are ).
Also, as a side note,
saying that propaganda is lost on you is like saying that advertising has no effect on you. It isn't, and it does have an effect.
The sooner you admit it to yourself, the better off you will be.
Your soul was made of fists.
Jar the Sam
Jar the Sam
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