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When do I craft to MAX Skill ups.. The AnswerFollow

#1 Nov 03 2004 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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Gone forever

Edited, Thu May 4 09:05:56 2006 by Purplenv
#2 Nov 03 2004 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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When you say "opposite day to crystal (strong against)" do you mean the crystal is strong against the day, or the day is strong against the crystal? So like would that -1 be using a Fire Crystal on Watersday or a Water Crystal on Firesday?

Thanks
#3 Nov 03 2004 at 12:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is good stuff!!! I've been wanting to start skilling up again, but I was gonna try to figure the whole Skillup thing first. Now I don't have to.

I'm guessing this is all theory, based no doubt on countless observations. So I'll take a stab at a specific example and see if I get "yes" "don't know" "possibly" or "most likely."

Here's my hypothetical question:

I'm in the expensive arrow stage and I'm at 2 levels below the cap for Demon Arrows. The arrowheads are expensive and sometimes hard to come by. I already know from leveling the other arrows that going from 2 below the cap to capping produces an UNGODLY amount of arrows. So I want the maximum amount of skillups and the least amount of arrows to offload.

So I produce the following formula:

Skill Cap (69) - My Skill (67) - (New moon + Darksday)

resulting in:

69 - 67 - (-2) = 4


Would this, in theory, put me back in the "sweet spot" of skill-ups?


Rate-up in advance. \(^o^)/
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#4 Nov 03 2004 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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OK Here's an example to make sure I understand. My leathercrafting is currently 13 and I want to take it cap, all the while producing max skillups. I came up with something like this:

Lizard Cesti - Leather 17 - Earth Crystal

Level 13: Craft on Earthsday (+1), Face South (+.5), New Moon (-1), No Guild Support (+0) = 0.5
x = 17 - 13 - 0.5 = 3.5

Level 14: Craft on Earthsday (+1), Face Southeast (-0.5), Half Moon (+0), No Guild Support (+0) = 0.5
x = 17 - 14 - 0.5 = 2.5

Level 15: Craft on Windsday (-1), Face Southeast (-0.5), Half Moon (+0), No Guild Support (+0) = -1.5
x = 17 - 15 + 1.5 = 3.5

Level 16: Craft on Windsday (-1), Face Southeast (-0.5), Half Moon (+0), No Guild Support (+0) = -1.5
x = 17 - 16 + 1.5 = 2.5

Is this right?

Edited, Wed Nov 3 12:19:42 2004 by divisortheory
#5 Nov 03 2004 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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Awesome post! It's funny, because the +/- thing is similar to a simple technique to count cards in blackjack. I guess that would be for another post. Excellent job, I can't wait to test it out^^
#6 Nov 03 2004 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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Eruntalon the Wise wrote:

I'm in the expensive arrow stage and I'm at 2 levels below the cap for Demon Arrows. The arrowheads are expensive and sometimes hard to come by. I already know from leveling the other arrows that going from 2 below the cap to capping produces an UNGODLY amount of arrows. So I want the maximum amount of skillups and the least amount of arrows to offload.

So I produce the following formula:

Skill Cap (69) - My Skill (67) - (New moon + Darksday)

resulting in:

69 - 67 - (-2) = 4


Don't forget about the other factors. For example, if you're facing South and have no guild support, you need to subtract 1 from that number to give you x=3. Still the sweet spot, and perhaps even better than the outside of the sweetspot (e.g. either 2 or 4).
#7 Nov 03 2004 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry for another post, but I'm curious how:

1) Moghouse elemental energy
2) Other days of the week besides Opposite / Same
3) Other directions besides Opposite / Same
4) Other moon phases besides New / Half / Full

affect the formula as well.

For moon phases, it's probably just a regular gradient.

Moon% / 50 - 1

So like if the moon is at 100%, you have 100/50 - 1 = +1, and if the moon is at 0% y ou have 0/50 - 1 = -1, and if the moon is at 50% you have 50/50 - 1 = 0.

But this way you could figure out other percents, like if the moon was at 75% it would be 75/50 - 1 = +0.5, etc

Edited, Wed Nov 3 12:24:48 2004 by divisortheory
#8 Nov 03 2004 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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Great post Purple. I often kick myself for setting up too many good variables because I am nervous about losing materials and then I wind up crafting away with almost no skill gain.

Another factor worth mentioning is moghancement. It doesn't affect your rate of success or skill gain (that I am aware of aside from desynthesis) but it does have an effect on the amount of materials you lose when you fail.

I have not done any controlled experiements with these moghancements, but the key item themselves explicitly state that you will lose fewer materials when crafting with the corresponding crystal. I noticed a difference personally even with just faint energy in my moghouse. I found this effect invaluable. Losing gold ingots to failures makes me cry :(

Just note that some furnishings with the same element will not always give you the same moghancement. For example furniture with the water element can give you water or fishing moghancemnet. Earth can give you earth or gardening. It depends on the item. It would be best to do some research online before you spend a lot of money on furniture.

Here are some of the furnishings I found that will minimize material loss:

Fire Crystal: Cupboard, Bookshelf, Red Jar
Wind Crystal: Wicker Box
Earth Crystal: Yellow Jar

There are lots more.

Good Luck!
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#9 Nov 03 2004 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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So you're saying that guild support makes it harder to get skillups?
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#10 Nov 03 2004 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
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That's a very interesting theory...

I'm curious. How did you draw up those figures? They seem like they would fit well, but it could actually be double those values (or half) for all we know.

Still, rate up for a nice guess!

[Edit]Just as an example to work with:

Rainbow Threads = 78 cap. Current skill = 72 + 1 (based off of your information, the glasses I wear shouln't affect the "sum of values" section).

That leaves 5 points with which to work so...

Paid Synth Support will lower that number to 3. This is already a good setting to be at so we need to somehow cancel out the other effects or simply avoid them altogether. Hmm... maybe I should make a trip back to Windy...[/Edit]

Edited, Wed Nov 3 13:22:41 2004 by Deila
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#11 Nov 03 2004 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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Ok, my internet at work went down almost instantly after posting this, sorry for not gettting back sooner.

I updated the day strong against notation. It is that the Day is strong against the Crystal to produce a -1.


For Eruntalon's example, and divisortheory's reply, yes all factors need to be considered, before you have a "X".
For factors you want to negate, or leave at zero, make sure you are not in one of the two deciding criteria. For days, if you are not in same day, or on the day stong against the crystal, or lights day, or darks day, I consider it to be zero effect. Similarly works for direction and moon phase.

So I produce the following formula:
Skill Cap (69) - My Skill (67) - (New moon + Darksday)
resulting in:
69 - 67 - (-2) = 4

The above is correct as long as the other factors such as direction and synth support are zero. BTW, in this instance I would personally want a "X" closer to 2 then 4, because of material costs and rarety.

Divisortheory, your calculations look perfect to skill up on Lizard Cesti to level 17. Now you just need to apply to the Actual criteria you find when online. You defiantely understand what I was saying.

I did provide in the initial post in the notes regarding moon phase, that the number to apply varies with each day, and gave an example. If the notation is says Full or New moon, I consider it a full +1 or -1 rather then the 95% and so on.

1) Moghouse elemental energy
I personally have not played with this as a factor.
With no elemental energy this factor would be 0.
It would be interesting to see how much of a factory this could play in crafting results.

2) Other days of the week besides Opposite / Same
Opposite, same, light, dark will all have numbers to apply, the rest I consider zero.

3) Other directions besides Opposite / Same
Similar to days, but since it is half as effective even at its strongest criteria, if the direction is not same or opposite, I consider it zero.

4) Other moon phases besides New / Half / Full
As stated moon is a fully variable number anywhere between -1, and +1.

#12 Nov 03 2004 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
That's a very interesting theory...

I'm curious. How did you draw up those figures? They seem like they would fit well, but it could actually be double those values (or half) for all we know.

Still, rate up for a nice guess!


As assumed by Eruntalon, this is my theory based on my observations. As you can see in my sig, I have done a fair amount of crafting.

Over that time, I have drawn many conclusions, some worked, some did not. This theory is a result of my almost year of crafting. Unfortunately I don't keep hard numbers, as that would reduce the pleasure I can find in pumping out some arrows, or glass fibers.

I have posted this theory in previous posts, as replies, and had nothing but positive responses, from other independant testers. I figured it was time to put it in a thread that can be easily bookmarked and/or found.

I would not think the actual factors to be double or half of my guess', but in reality could be a more random number that is not as easily defined. Since SE will never release actual formulas all we can do is GUESS.

Edited, Wed Nov 3 13:27:56 2004 by Purplenv
#13 Nov 03 2004 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So you're saying that guild support makes it harder to get skillups?


I personally have always stopped getting guild support when I'm 4 levels away from an items cap. Guild support is designed to let crafters stay closer to that 4-5 level sweet spot while leveling longer. In my experience it's been best to get payed support until your 5 levels out then get free support for 1 level.

To test this, get payed support while skilling up on an item and only 1 level away from its cap. The skillups won't stop comming alltogether but they will be extremely rare. Much more so than if you wouldn't have bothered with support.
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#14 Nov 03 2004 at 1:48 PM Rating: Excellent
You can probably determine what the +skill is for free and paid support by playing around with the maximum crafting gap. There are reports of people unable to try a recipe without synthesis support that they are able to try with synthesis support.

I don't personally buy the direction-facing theory. I also have never seen break/skill data to back up any day-of-crafting theories (only HQ data).

Personally, I find my best skill-up results happen between 4 and 8 levels from cap, regardless of moon phase or day, with advanced support.
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#15 Nov 03 2004 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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One more idea:

Guild point items are also one of "The Factors"

For example if I craft with my Goldsmithing glasses on, I should add +1 to the factors listed above.

Thoughts?
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#16 Nov 03 2004 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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^^
Guild items that add skill definately need to be considered as "Your Skill". Notation was added.

Quote:
I don't personally buy the direction-facing theory. I also have never seen break/skill data to back up any day-of-crafting theories (only HQ data).

Personally, I find my best skill-up results happen between 4 and 8 levels from cap, regardless of moon phase or day, with advanced support.


You would craft Demon Arrows (if you were to level woodworking further), with a skill of 61, a 8 level gap, and do this on Darksday of a new moon, and not thing twice about possibly waiting till Earthday and a full moon?

Edited, Wed Nov 3 14:01:14 2004 by Purplenv
#17 Nov 03 2004 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
One more idea:

Guild point items are also one of "The Factors"

For example if I craft with my Goldsmithing glasses on, I should add +1 to the factors listed above.

Thoughts?


I'm on the fence with this question.

I only recently recieved my Smithy's Apron, and have only leveld smithing 1 level while wearing it so my observations have been limited.

I can always speculate however, so here goes.

If indeed the Guild point items do play a roll in the skill up formula, it would only negate some uses for snythesis support. On the other hand it would also free crafters from always skilling up while sitting at the guilds. Giving us the ability to craft for skill gain in more convenient places (Jeuno or a city without your particular guild). Thats almost a non-issue though, to most of us, as we would want to craft at our particular guild and probably have mule characters in other cities to buy our supplies.

So to summarize: I'm not sure. ^^
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#18 Nov 03 2004 at 2:14 PM Rating: Excellent
PurpleEnv, without a second thought. I've never noticed any impact of days or moons on my skill-up sessions.

Though, I'd probably do Bodkin Arrows rather than Demons.
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#19 Nov 03 2004 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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I'm going to write a small Windows App that allows you to enter stuff like your level, item max, item crystal, day, and moon phase and it will tell you what to do to get max skillup. Should be done in an hour or two unless boss comes over and Smiley: glare over my shoulder
#20 Nov 03 2004 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm going to write a small Windows App that allows you to enter stuff like your level, item max, item crystal, day, and moon phase and it will tell you what to do to get max skillup.


Thats a great idea. Just remember that the formula variables could in reality be very different then what Purplenv has suggested. I think that he is pretty close to the correct numbers, however, as my experience and data support this formula for the most part.
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#21 Nov 03 2004 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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Divisortheory,

Looking forward to the app.

I personally think the best application would be:

Input skills,
Input recipe
Input day
Input Moon

Output what of the two factors you can control at any time you need to apply to be in the best skill zone.

Since you likely have a recipe you want to do (as the guides do a good job of narrowing the options of effective recipes for leveling), and you will want to make it asap after entering the current factors. The most usefull data would be when running that recipe should you get paid support, free support, and what direction to face. Since with these factors you can swing the "X" by +2.5 all the way to -0.5 and steps between.

Glad to see others are also have a productive day at work. :)
#22 Nov 03 2004 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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in case you cant fiind it, here the direction someone gave me:


Crystal -> Direction

Water -> W
Wind -> SE
Lightning -> SW
Ice -> E
Fire -> NW
Earth -> S
Dark -> N
Light -> NE


hope this help ^^
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#23 Nov 03 2004 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You would craft Demon Arrows (if you were to level woodworking further), with a skill of 61, a 8 level gap, and do this on Darksday of a new moon, and not thing twice about possibly waiting till Earthday and a full moon?


Thinking about that makes me cry.

While I'm only at 200+ Skills, I'd have to agree that Day + Moon is a significant factor when dealing with large gaps. Personally I beleive it to be stronger than synth support.

I do a lot of bridge synths, so i am usually 1-4 levels below the caps. With that in mind it's been a long time since i skilled up on any day besides darksday or crystal weak day. With 24 synths, It averages to a difference of 1.5 skill levels compared to 1.0 skill levels. (Pre-50)

However i simply refuse to believe in the directional theory.


Great post and a rate up!
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#24 Nov 03 2004 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow... this is very nicely done. As a 72 cook, my next venture was planned out to be an item that caps 9 levels above my current. From your formula, I should realistically get another level or two under my belt before attempting. With all the ideal conditions (I don't have any + cooking gear) I would still be at a 5.

What's nice about this is it can give you options. Lining up a day and a moon can be very challenging when putting it up against your own schedule (both in game and RL), your LS's schedule, etc.

Thanks for passing this info along.

Raev
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#25 Nov 03 2004 at 5:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Very interesting..once I round I get some gold nuggets (hopefully) from this next harvest of cuttings, I may try a bit of this out...here's to skillup!
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#26 Nov 03 2004 at 6:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I have a very rough, not thoroughly tested version of my app ready. Problem is, I don't have a file server. If anyone wants to make this available, let me know and I'll email you the file. My goal was to whip this out as fast as possible, not to make it pretty or have "robust" or "high quality" code. That's not to say it doesn't work, because it does from the limited testing I've done.

Anyway just give me a private message and I'll email it to you. Probably later tonight or tomorrow since I'ma bout to head home from work.
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