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Raid Gating.Follow

#1 Aug 16 2014 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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-Raids will open roughly two and a half weeks after the expansion releases. This will give players time to level and enjoy some dungeons and other content before they move on to raiding.
-Normal and Heroic will open first, with Mythic and LFR starting to open the following week.
-Foundry will open some number of weeks later. (4 weeks for MSV before HoF opened was too short - WatcherDev)


Opening raid week will be on Thanksgiving Week. Effectively making 3+ weeks without raiding. Then we will have 7 bosses to raid. Then another 6-8 weeks for Foundry, so 2015.

Gating without Gating, IMO.

Edited, Aug 16th 2014 12:36pm by bodhisattva
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#2 Aug 16 2014 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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I love when hard gates are presented as a benefit to players.

I'm going to try that in real life. Just hand in an assignment two weeks late, because my boss deserves a chance to just relax.

No, no, no, don't mention it. Don't need to think about the marketing campaign at all. Man, I just can't but make everyone's lives better. How about a raise?
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#3 Aug 16 2014 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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lol

Edited, Aug 16th 2014 2:00pm by idiggory
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#4 Aug 16 2014 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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I actually do think the gating is a benefit this time around. The expansion is coming out 6 months later than intended, at a very awkward time. This way, raids are delayed until what looks like December 2nd, so I don't have to miss the first week of raiding to be with my family for Thanksgiving. Then I have all Dember to work on those bosses, if we even do raid. With Christmas and New Years, there's going to be a lot of absences on our roster. People have lives and ****, yo.

Given the release date, this is actually the best raid schedule I could have hoped for.
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#5 Aug 16 2014 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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It's a change that's good for players who didn't intend to raid right away and bad for the players who did.

It's not the actual gate that bothers me.

What bothers me is the existence of the gate and Blizz pretending that this is about giving people breathing room for raiding. Lol, no it isn't. Players have always bum rushed cap if they wanted to, and taken their time if they didn't. No one is ever forced to rush to cap unless they've made the decision to be in a guild so hardcore that first week raiding was a must.

The gate is there so that Blizz can address stability issues, bugs, etc. in the base game experience before they have to think about raiding content. Is there anything wrong with that? Not at all! I actually approve of the idea.

But say that. Blatantly false PR lines are annoying. And Blizz used to be the type of company that would actually be much more honest about the reason for the gate.
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#6 Aug 16 2014 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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How is this bad for players who intend to raid right away? I intend on raiding right away. This is great for me. My early expansion experience is almost certainly going to be better because of this change.

And how is this not about giving players breathing room? I can't pretend to know Blizzard's intentions, but this seems like it was directed at the raiders who want to also see content. I'm pretty sure as a hardcore raider this is nothing but great for me, since I also enjoy seeing the content without having to rush through it. I can take my time and level and gear up at my own pace before stepping into Heroics on day 1, at a relatively even playing field with the others who raced to cap.

Edited, Aug 16th 2014 5:41pm by IDrownFish
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#7 Aug 16 2014 at 4:01 PM Rating: Default
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People make decisions based on what they want.

If given all options, a group of people are going to rush endgame so they can access content right away, then that is what they want to do.

All Blizzard is doing here is saying, "Nope, you can't do that." That's it. That's all they're doing. They're taking away the option that that group wants to do the most.

Your early experience is going to be better solely because rushing to endgame is apparently not something you wanted to do. That's the blunt reality here.

Your experience won't be better "because of the change" because the exact same behaviors and experience of the game would have been available without the change. On the other hand, there are players who are going to have a much worse experience, because the behaviors and experiences they WOULD have had access to (raids) are going to be barred from them.

If you're doing something you don't want to do in the game, when you legitimately have other options, that's really your problem. It also doesn't sound healthy to me.

As for the holiday thing, that affects everyone equally. There is literally no more intrinsic value to a hardcore raider hitting level cap than there is for a casual player who just wants to see a new quest. Both are making the same sacrifice in play time vs. family time.
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#8 Aug 16 2014 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
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Your early experience is going to be better solely because rushing to endgame is apparently not something you wanted to do. That's the blunt reality here.


Don't you dare presume to tell me what I want to do. To be clear, my goal in the game is to clear content and to be competitive with a group of close friends who also happen to be my very skilled guildies. That's my priority number one, and priority number two is to see the leveling content and enjoy the solo game. If I have to sacrifice priority number two to help priority number one, then that's not something I "don't want to do." That's something I will do gladly. Don't make the mistake of thinking that you know what I enjoy in the game.

There is nothing about wanting a later start date that says that I don't want to play the endgame. I just want a less frantic rush in order to be prepared for the endgame race once it starts, and that's what Blizzard is giving us. My early experience is going to be way better because I can have the time to stop and smell the roses on the way to where I want to go. I don't really see why you think wanting to take my time to get there means I don't want to do endgame content at all.

Quote:
All Blizzard is doing here is saying, "Nope, you can't do that." That's it. That's all they're doing. They're taking away the option that that group wants to do the most.


You say that Blizzard is limiting people, that there's going to be angry players because they can't raid one week earlier. How true is that, I wonder? Because, while anecdotal of course, I haven't talked to a single person about this who has said they wished they opened the gates on the raids sooner. I don't think the majority of people are against this.

A lot of the argument for a later start date is pretty similar to the in-game Valor cap and other limiting mechanics. Sure, there's a group of people who likely want to do as many dungeons and other sources of Valor as they could and get fully upgraded gear in one or two hyper-intense grinding sessions. And they're going to feel limited by the weekly Valor caps. But the majority of players are going to like that they aren't pressured to grind out so much Valor in one session in order to stay competitive.

"But Blizzard limiting the Valor is limiting players! The players would grind because they want to, not because they have to!"

This argument has come up before, and is always shut down. The truth is, players would feel required to do it, just to stay competitive. There would be serious penalties, even for your average raider who only PuGs groups every now and again. "Must have fully Valor-upgraded gear or kick." "Full upgrades or no invite." "Will inspect on join." etc. The player would be required to complete the grind just to even enjoy the game. As a result, a lot of people don't.

It's pretty similar with an earlier start date. People would feel required to rush through content, even the average PuG raider who doesn't have an established group yet. A later start date allows people time to do things at their own pace and to enjoy the content at a rate they prefer, but still be competitive by the time raids get going.

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As for the holiday thing, that affects everyone equally.


Except it doesn't. EU guilds wouldn't have an issue with it, nor would Asian guilds. The Canadians and Australians would be ready to raid just fin. Thanksgiving is an American holiday. All it takes is enough people not being able to raid because they choose to spend time with their family or can't get to a computer, and suddenly other people are penalized too.
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#9 Aug 16 2014 at 11:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
The Canadians and Australians would be ready to raid just fin. Thanksgiving is an American holiday. All it takes is enough people not being able to raid because they choose to spend time with their family or can't get to a computer, and suddenly other people are penalized too.


You're wrong. There is real Thanksgiving, which is celebrated in Canada on the second Monday of October. Then there is that farce you Americans put on.
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#10 Aug 16 2014 at 11:17 PM Rating: Good
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bodhisattva wrote:
IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
The Canadians and Australians would be ready to raid just fin. Thanksgiving is an American holiday. All it takes is enough people not being able to raid because they choose to spend time with their family or can't get to a computer, and suddenly other people are penalized too.


You're wrong. There is real Thanksgiving, which is celebrated in Canada on the second Monday of October. Then there is that farce you Americans put on.

Pfft. I bet Canadian "Thanksgiving" doesn't even come with three different flavors of bread pudding. And you have to all give thanks for bags of milk and Kraft dinner.
#11 Aug 17 2014 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Woah...hold on there my gun slinging shoot everything that moves 'murican friend. I don't know where you get these misconceptions about us up here in Canuckistan, but we do not even have an option over here to buy milk in a bag, unless of course it's out of the original bag..the one with the teats on it...
And at least on this side of the coast (the good side, far far away from "the center of the universe" on the east coast) we don't even offer one flavour of "bread" pudding....yuck!

And back on topic...Raiding &*#% yeah!

Edited, Aug 17th 2014 10:55am by Xizervexius
#12 Aug 17 2014 at 11:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Xizervexius wrote:
Woah...hold on there my gun slinging shoot everything that moves 'murican friend. I don't know where you get these misconceptions about us up here in Canuckistan, but we do not even have an option over here to buy milk in a bag, unless of course it's out of the original bag..the one with the teats on it...
And at least on this side of the coast (the good side, far far away from "the center of the universe" on the east coast) we don't even offer one flavour of "bread" pudding....yuck!

And back on topic...Raiding &*#% yeah!
You're in the wrong part of Canada for the bags of milk, apparently. And the fact that you lack any bread pudding just proves your status as the lesser Thanksgiving.
#13 Aug 18 2014 at 5:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think the "bum-rushing" thing is unhealthy for both the players AND the game itself.

Hardcore raiders oftentimes spend ridiculous amounts of time on the game until they clear the raids, spending every possible second scrambling for World Firsts (which Blizz really should remove from Raiding as well; they already stopped doing it for Max Levels and Crafts) and/or to be "____ rated guild on the server!!!11oneone".

Then they'd start spewing their puke vitriol all over the o-boards, whining "OMG THIS GAME IS TOO EAZY I ALREADY HAVE MYTHIC BLAH BLAHBLAH CLEAR!! WHY CAN'T YOU SCRUBS DO THIS???"

And a few weeks later it is "OMG GIVE US SOMETHING NEW NAO!!!"

It takes good ole fashioned hard TIME to develop content. WoW Players have shown us that they are not willing to wait, whatsoever at all. They must have it NOW NOW NOW. The more casual players feel that they can never catch up, and if they want to do any sort of progression raiding, they have to try to keep up with the flood of content coming down the pipes that the development team is scrambling to release as fast as possible to keep the whiners from whining.

With this type of gating, you inconvenience the hardcore "Must have it NOW!" people somewhat. They'll feel bored and they'll grumble about the gating. Your average player will be "meh, it ain't that long of a wait." and the more Casual players are "OMG thank you Blizz! Now I don't have to slave away to keep current!"

It helps more people than it hurts, and that's good. Also it gives the internal testing team more time to test the gated content to catch bugs before the content is unlocked and people are let in, to make sure the experience is at its best before anybody gets there to touch it, AND it gives them MORE time to develop the next tier of content without a bunch of self-entitled brats yelling "HURRY UP D*MN IT!!" on the forums and twitter.

This kind of gating is good for the game; Blizz is like a parent having to physically restrain their child because the child cannot control himself.

Edited, Aug 18th 2014 7:29am by Lyrailis
#14 Aug 18 2014 at 5:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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SoO officially takes the crown from ICC as the raid out for the longest time. It went live September 10th, 2013. If raids go live Nov 25, we are looking at 441 days without a new raid. 448 if it is Dec 2nd.

Top end nerds who take time off and push for 100 should be able to do it in under 2 days, probably 1 in some insane cases. I plan on having it knocked out in a week (I have to work). I can normally gear dungeon blues in 2-3 days. Other than that Garrison for a week and change. I play wow to raid, I've wait too long for new content. Having to wait extra weeks on top of it and then deal with TGiving and Xmas interrupting my schedule is less than ideal. Not to mentioned another 6 to 8 weeks for the next half of the tier to come out.

Not to mention the challenge of retaining a raid group for another three months and the fact that when people come back for expacs after extended breaks only 1 out of 3 of them are there 3 months later.
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#15 Aug 18 2014 at 5:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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It also needs to be noted that the leveling experience is balanced for people using level 90 boost. So the lvl 90-91 quests are balanced for people in 483 ilvl gear. If you raid and are 550+ you are going to steamroll content. If you are 570+ gear you will 2-3 shot most adds and be able to pull packs of 8-10 mobs without needing to use CD's to survive.

If you are 550 you probably won't start replacing gear until level 98. If you are 570+, you won't replace gear until 98-100 (more than likely 100). You will be able to push 5 man heroics in heroic SoO gear. I can't stress enough how leveling in WoD if you have gear is very much the equivalent of clearing Molten Core or a Vanilla raid. I won't comment on the quality of the story, as like anything different strokes for different folks. Once you get past the opening in Tanaan jungle you will primarily hit with kill/gather quests. At lvl 92 I have had one bombing quest. It lacks the variety that you had in MoP and Cata, no vehicle quests or ride the giant yeti to speak of or other special mechanics.

Basically I would be more willing to stop and smell the roses, if I felt that the content was amazeballs. For example I really enjoyed MoP leveling.
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#16 Aug 18 2014 at 8:33 PM Rating: Good
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It lacks the variety that you had in MoP and Cata, no vehicle quests or ride the giant yeti to speak of or other special mechanics.


So, how is the garrison feature working out? Any impressions on crafting?
#17 Aug 18 2014 at 9:56 PM Rating: Good
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It lacks the variety that you had in MoP and Cata, no vehicle quests or ride the giant yeti to speak of or other special mechanics.


So, how is the garrison feature working out? Any impressions on crafting?


I'm not that far along in it. You are given the intro when you get to SMV. You get a hearthstone that will specifically take you back to the location. Quests in SMV give you resources. You get daily quests and get new followers. Followers have skill sets and can go on missions, level up and there is a gotta catch them all feel for getting them all. It seems like it is going to be purty neat if you like the farm. I kind of wish there was an app on the phone that allowed you to micromanage outside of the game.
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#18 Aug 19 2014 at 3:17 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks! Maybe when you get to those points you could start a new thread for that?
#19 Aug 19 2014 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
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bodhisattva wrote:
SoO officially takes the crown from ICC as the raid out for the longest time. It went live September 10th, 2013. If raids go live Nov 25, we are looking at 441 days without a new raid. 448 if it is Dec 2nd.


And I still haven't looted a weapon in there.

Hope they make weapons purchasable in WoD because this sucks. I've run with a PvP weapon for the last many months due to RNGesus hating me.
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#20 Aug 19 2014 at 5:42 PM Rating: Good
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Don't you dare presume to tell me what I want to do. To be clear, my goal in the game is to clear content and to be competitive with a group of close friends who also happen to be my very skilled guildies. That's my priority number one, and priority number two is to see the leveling content and enjoy the solo game. If I have to sacrifice priority number two to help priority number one, then that's not something I "don't want to do." That's something I will do gladly. Don't make the mistake of thinking that you know what I enjoy in the game.

There is nothing about wanting a later start date that says that I don't want to play the endgame. I just want a less frantic rush in order to be prepared for the endgame race once it starts, and that's what Blizzard is giving us. My early experience is going to be way better because I can have the time to stop and smell the roses on the way to where I want to go. I don't really see why you think wanting to take my time to get there means I don't want to do endgame content at all.


I'm sorry, but the reality here is really freaking obvious. It's basic logic.

The EXACT order of events here has always been possible.

Expansion start -> rush endgame -> endgame.
Expansions start -> level steadily to endgame -> endgame.

For every previous expansion, those were both options. And they were options for every player. And the hardcore raider could just as easily see all the content the expansion offered, and fully gear before the next tier, by choosing a steady leveling pace instead of bumrushing the raid in the first week.

If you are happy about the state of affairs when the first option isn't available, because it means you will be enjoying the second option, it's because the second option is the one you wanted to be doing.

I'm sorry you felt forced to bumrush cap. But literally the only value of being in the raid the first week is because you wanted in the raid the first week. If you didn't, and you're there, that's your own damned fault. I'm sorry you felt obligated or whatever to be there, either because that's where your friends were or out of some elitist sentiment to be "competitive," but that's your choice.

There are reasons why delaying the raid is good - and easily the most important of them is core game stability - but the removal of options isn't one of them. That's the biggest con.

If you're happy about it, because it "fixes" something about your experience... Well, I'm sorry you put yourself in a position where you couldn't be happy. But I really don't care, because you're celebrating a "fix" that demands everyone conform to a system that YOU want because it takes away a choice YOU didn't want to make. And that's ********* because all it does is take away options from everyone else.

And if hardcore raiders as a whole, according to your anecdote, never actually wanted to be in the raid first week anyway, then the whole group is ****** in the head. It's a freaking game. Play it in the way that'll actually give you pleasure. I always assumed having first-week attempts at a raid gave them pleasure, so I never judged.

But if it's actually them doing something they didn't want to do because they felt some obligation to do it, in a freaking game... Well, then I am definitely judging now.
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#21 Aug 19 2014 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
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If you're happy about it, because it "fixes" something about your experience... Well, I'm sorry you put yourself in a position where you couldn't be happy. But I really don't care, because you're celebrating a "fix" that demands everyone conform to a system that YOU want because it takes away a choice YOU didn't want to make. And that's **** because all it does is take away options from everyone else.

And if hardcore raiders as a whole, according to your anecdote, never actually wanted to be in the raid first week anyway, then the whole group is **** in the head. It's a freaking game. Play it in the way that'll actually give you pleasure. I always assumed having first-week attempts at a raid gave them pleasure, so I never judged.

But if it's actually them doing something they didn't want to do because they felt some obligation to do it, in a freaking game... Well, then I am definitely judging now.


When you're in a guild raid group of 9-24 other players, you kinda have to do what THEY want to do.

From past experiences, and from talking to other people around, many progression guilds and their players wanted to get at it and start tackling the content ASAP.

If you were more casual and you didn't feel like dumping large gobs of time into the game, then guess what? You got left behind and they replaced you (and/or a possible gkick).

YOU could make the decision that you'd rather wait a week or two or three before getting into raiding, but what about the rest of the guild you raided during the last expansion with? Will THEY wait? Probably not. They probably wanna ding 100 ASAP and jump into the first raid....with or without you. Most likely without and you end up in the dust if you want too long.

You could just leave the guild, sure... but not everybody wants to do that. With the gating thing, well.. the guild can't rush ahead of you as fast if the raids just plain aren't open yet, now can they?
#22 Aug 19 2014 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
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Fishy's anecdotal evidence is that not a single person he knows is displeased about this change.

Which means that either everyone he knows is slightly insane, and they've all collectively forced each other to rush cap so that none of them got to enjoy the leveling experience at all, even though they all wanted to...

...or people are being denied the option of accessing the raid content right away, which is what they actually want.

I am perfectly happy to acknowledge that there has been social pressure from guilds to hit endgame. Absolutely.

But there has also absolutely been a diversity of progression of raiding guilds on every server that wasn't completely dead. Some first week guilds, some second week guild, some third, etc.

If you joined a guild that wants to hit content faster than you, that does suck. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that you need to choose between the guild you chose and the content you want to do.

But that is your choice.

A system-wide restriction of content is NOT justified by the fact that you don't want to make that choice. Now, all those people who DID join those progression guilds because they wanted to raid in the first week won't be able to.

Like I said, there are some good reasons for that. And if Blizzard had named those (and I suspect they're easily their top reasoning for the delay), I'd have no issue here.

But pretending like a restriction of content is a win for players "because now you can actually see the leveling content!" is crap. That's not why they did it.


I don't doubt there are people whose lives are easier because of this. But they're the people who were making the choice not to play that way, by choosing a certain guild or otherwise. That's not a valid reason for restricting the access of all players who actually do want to raid first week.
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#23 Aug 19 2014 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
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One of the biggest reasons as to why is very obvious:

Time.

Maybe Blizz is getting tired of all the self-entitled "I WANT NEW CONTENT NOW D*MMIT!!!!" people on the o-boards?

They KNOW that if they DON'T gate the content somehow, the bosses will be dead in less than a couple weeks, even on Mythic. But they also know that to develop good QUALITY content, takes MUCH longer than that, and people will start whining. They know there's a decent number of people who will see "_____ world first kill!" and they'll go "that's it, tier over. I'll just wait for the next" even though they're only, say, 50% of the way through the tier. They'll have enough pieces to start the next.

I know there are people like that. And they'll go "Where's the new content, Blizz!?" after a couple months. And personally I stinking hate that. I'm still working on the first Tier and everybody's going "WE WANT THE 2ND CONTENT TIER NOW!!!" and I'm like "Gaaah! No. No. NO. I'm not freaking done yet."

And of course Blizz has to scramble to get it out, because of the whining. If they don't, people will quit. Gating the raids, some people might whine and grumble, but the suspense and anticipation should keep em there. Some might quit, but surely fewer will.

Gating the content gives them time to develop more stuff.
#24 Aug 20 2014 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah. That and the post-expansion patching are why this change is made. Which is why the "We gave you the gift of time so youc an enjoy leveling" stance they've adopted annoys me.

No you didn't. You gated the raid because it takes stress off your development and bug-fixing teams.

I'm absolutely on board with the idea that this makes the game better overall, because post-expansions stability can only increase if they have to focus on fewer things. I'm just annoyed that Blizzard is no longer the sort of company that would be honest about that.
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#25 Aug 20 2014 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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So......we're arguing over semantics now?

You admit that this is a good thing for the game; you're just upset as to the supplied reasons?

And it ain't like Blizz is lying either; it will give you more time to "enjoy" leveling without feeling like you have to hit 100 "As Soon As Possible". With the raids being gated, you know there's no real rush. You'll have plenty of time, you can slow down and you'll still get there in time. While that might not be the primary reason, it is still a valid reason.

#26 Aug 20 2014 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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My issue was literally never with the change. And it's not semantics.

My issue is with how Blizzard has changed as a company.

10 years ago, Blizzard would have explicitly and honestly stated why they were making the change, for better or for worse, and they earned a lot of respect for that. Why? Because it meant they were treating their fans like intelligent people, and were endeavoring to be transparent in their business practices.

Blizzard today? Their PR is definitely no longer on the list of positive qualities for the business.

Telling a customer that you're limiting their options for their own good is really, really degrading. But the thing is, it means you get to announce a potentially unpopular change without owning any of the blame for potential fallout. It's a BS PR move, and it's one I'd expect from SE or EA, but it's one oldschool Blizzard would never do.

Oldschool Blizzard would have told you that they were delaying the endgame release because it allowed them to focus on making sure that server stability, leveling experience, and early PVP were stable and bug-free and it allowed for a content update schedule that would work best for the majority of players.

Now, they shift all the blame for being unhappy onto the player. And that's a PR move I don't respect at all.


The rest of the thread has been a response to a specific point by Fishy.
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