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#1 Jul 22 2014 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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I just had an epiphany right now about the FFXIV. People used to complain that characters couldn't have an identity because leveling is so fast that it's common to see people with everything leveled. You had it all, but which one of those jobs were your mains? who knows. It could be any right? Well it turns out that the weekly caps on points actually fixes this problem. I have a 107 PLD and a 103 MNK. My lowest is 85 BRD. When I do events I go as PLD or MNK. It has never crossed my mind to take my 85BRD to second coil. I will always go the classes I'm best at. So I'm a PLD/MNK (don't try this in 11). That's my identity. And the beauty of this system too is that if I want to change what my main is I can just wait for the next patch, and gear up something else. What about you guys? whats your identity.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2014 5:45pm by Keysofgaruda
#2 Jul 22 2014 at 5:28 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
And the beauty of this system too is that if I want to change what my main is I can just wait for the next patch, and gear up something else.


Yep!

Also, slightly older gear remains relevant for a loooooong time before it really becomes obsolete, so it's also super easy to gear up a second job well enough for the vast majority of endgame content.

To answer your question, my identity is definitely paladin.
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#3 Jul 22 2014 at 5:33 PM Rating: Decent
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My identity depends on my character.

Lin Celistine, without a doubt, is a Dragoon. And as a player this is my best class. Where people fear using jumps, I have timed so even in new fights, I understand where my windows are. I get called "A beast" frequently, and I pull more commendations on my Dragoon than any other class on any other character. She's got Bard as an alternative Class, which is fun, but I don't feel works well with her identity. Working on Warrior to 50 to test out how it feels for her. But really, I feel most at home with her with a spear.

Eric Verus? Tactician. He's an Arcanist, on both sides of the fence. While best geared and most often on Scholar due to the ease of access for healers, what is really played into this is the flexibility, the tactical choice used to determine what I do. I will say I do feel quite at home with Scholar due to the breath of differing abilities I can use to affect the course of the fight, and I'm not afraid to use everything in my ********

Where Lin is a very mobile type of a character who hits hard and stays close to the enemy. Eric is a slow and meticulous type playstyle which has me with a broad eye over detail. To me, the characters play on different themes, and challenge me to have a broader play has a character.

Lin is defiantly my main, however, as she is my 1.0 character, and gets the most time and playstyle. I also have other Alts, but they haven't gotten enough playtime under their belt for me to give them a set identity yet. But they will. We're still just under a year in and plenty of time to play around.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2014 7:34pm by Hyrist
#4 Jul 22 2014 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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Keysofgaruda wrote:
I just had an epiphany right now about the FFXIV. People used to complain that characters couldn't have an identity because leveling is so fast that it's common to see people with everything leveled.


I don't think it was so much the leveling speed as it was the fact that everyone could do everything. The main complaints I heard(and voiced myself) was that there were no specialization options for your class that allowed freedom in your personal style of play. Sure you had access to a few added abilities from other classes, but there wasn't anything that changed the dynamic of your character or your role.

Using examples I'm familiar with, WoW and TERA have talents and glyphs respectively. You're locked into playing only one class per character, but the talent and glyph systems allow you much more freedom in terms of what your role is. One class can fill any of several different play styles depending on what the player chooses to do at the time. On an RP level, I could attach myself to the job or class I felt represented me but I wasn't pidgeon-holed into a single role. Not so much the case in XIV.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#5 Jul 23 2014 at 7:41 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Keysofgaruda wrote:
I just had an epiphany right now about the FFXIV. People used to complain that characters couldn't have an identity because leveling is so fast that it's common to see people with everything leveled.


I don't think it was so much the leveling speed as it was the fact that everyone could do everything. The main complaints I heard(and voiced myself) was that there were no specialization options for your class that allowed freedom in your personal style of play. Sure you had access to a few added abilities from other classes, but there wasn't anything that changed the dynamic of your character or your role.

Using examples I'm familiar with, WoW and TERA have talents and glyphs respectively. You're locked into playing only one class per character, but the talent and glyph systems allow you much more freedom in terms of what your role is. One class can fill any of several different play styles depending on what the player chooses to do at the time. On an RP level, I could attach myself to the job or class I felt represented me but I wasn't pidgeon-holed into a single role. Not so much the case in XIV.

Actually no locked specialization was absolute complete freedom. If I remember right the initial launch was total freedom. Now things are forced pigeon-holed when before it was choice pigeon hole. Theoretically the class system is still here with jobs being the glyph system. However some want the jobs to be here with the class as the glyph system. I am sure some would just like to see the class system go away completely.

I could go into some big spiel about how I prefer the original but fully fleshed out. But I won't because this version is pretty good too. And no sense crying over spilt milk even if I didn't want to accept it. This is how things are now and now is good.

Edited, Jul 23rd 2014 9:42am by sandpark
#6 Jul 23 2014 at 8:04 AM Rating: Excellent
Every patch is an opportunity to change Mains.

I did just that last patch and the result is that I enjoy playing more than ever.
#7 Jul 23 2014 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Keysofgaruda wrote:
I just had an epiphany right now about the FFXIV. People used to complain that characters couldn't have an identity because leveling is so fast that it's common to see people with everything leveled.


I don't think it was so much the leveling speed as it was the fact that everyone could do everything. The main complaints I heard(and voiced myself) was that there were no specialization options for your class that allowed freedom in your personal style of play. Sure you had access to a few added abilities from other classes, but there wasn't anything that changed the dynamic of your character or your role.

Using examples I'm familiar with, WoW and TERA have talents and glyphs respectively. You're locked into playing only one class per character, but the talent and glyph systems allow you much more freedom in terms of what your role is. One class can fill any of several different play styles depending on what the player chooses to do at the time. On an RP level, I could attach myself to the job or class I felt represented me but I wasn't pidgeon-holed into a single role. Not so much the case in XIV.

Actually no locked specialization was absolute complete freedom. If I remember right the initial launch was total freedom. Now things are forced pigeon-holed when before it was choice pigeon hole.


Again, you can choose whether or not to play the class or the job, but that doesn't give you freedom in the way you play that class or job. In TERA, I can play my warrior as a DPS or as a tank. In WoW, I can play my druid as a melee DPS or a ranged DPS, a healer or a tank as well. Even if your class has 3 melee roles like a rogue or 3 caster roles like a warlock, they play differently. Yes it's true that you don't have complete freedom(can't play a warlock healer or a rogue tank), but having 3 options over just 1 is enough to keep it fresh without completely throwing off the balance of the game.

There's only one dimension in ARR currently. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it will be a while before they add enough jobs that give it the same feel as the options you have in other games.



Edited, Jul 23rd 2014 2:30pm by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#8 Jul 23 2014 at 12:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
sandpark wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Keysofgaruda wrote:
I just had an epiphany right now about the FFXIV. People used to complain that characters couldn't have an identity because leveling is so fast that it's common to see people with everything leveled.


I don't think it was so much the leveling speed as it was the fact that everyone could do everything. The main complaints I heard(and voiced myself) was that there were no specialization options for your class that allowed freedom in your personal style of play. Sure you had access to a few added abilities from other classes, but there wasn't anything that changed the dynamic of your character or your role.

Using examples I'm familiar with, WoW and TERA have talents and glyphs respectively. You're locked into playing only one class per character, but the talent and glyph systems allow you much more freedom in terms of what your role is. One class can fill any of several different play styles depending on what the player chooses to do at the time. On an RP level, I could attach myself to the job or class I felt represented me but I wasn't pidgeon-holed into a single role. Not so much the case in XIV.

Actually no locked specialization was absolute complete freedom. If I remember right the initial launch was total freedom. Now things are forced pigeon-holed when before it was choice pigeon hole.


Again, you can choose whether or not to play the class or the job, but that doesn't give you freedom in the way you play that class or job. In TERA, I can play my warrior as a DPS or as a tank. In WoW, I can play my druid as a melee DPS or a ranged DPS, a healer or a tank as well. Even if your class has 3 melee roles like a rogue or 3 caster roles like a warlock, they play differently. Yes it's true that you don't have complete freedom(can't play a warlock healer or a rogue tank), but having 3 options over just 1 is enough to keep it fresh without completely throwing off the balance of the game.

There's only one dimension in ARR currently. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it will be a while before they add enough jobs that give it the same feel as the options you have in other games.



Edited, Jul 23rd 2014 2:30pm by FilthMcNasty


Well, if you to go back and look at the original 1.0, you could basically build your own class. Wear any armor, equip nearly any ability apart from a few basic attacks which belonged to the weapon you had. And while this sounds like the ultimate in freedom...

Well, you guessed it, it turned into something of the opposite. Everyone looked the same and wore the same armor, even at level 1. Everyone equipped the same abilities. And it was really hard to delegate who should heal or tank because everyone could heal and tank. In the end, offering a smorgasbord of equipment and abilities just turned into "one right way to do things" that you often see in MMOs only it applied to every single class in the game to form one homogenous build you absolutely had to have.

So naturally, it was the player base itself that told the developers that the build-your-class system sounded great in theory, but it turned out to be ridiculous in practice. They longed for traditional roles with boundaries that clearly defined their purpose. That's why Yoshida took the steps he did to limit the cross-class abilities and also to have these specialist jobs that further defined the class.

The jobs themselves are the equivalent to the WoW tech tree (but with no pick-and-mix), except only Arcanist gives you a choice between damage dealer and healer at the moment. But it's clear Yoshida is still trying to work out how to extend this further presumably in time for the expansion.

But the evolution of FFXIV demonstrates that choice is largely an illusion. Even with the limited options of Black Mage, just try casting Freeze in a Full Party sometime and watch as half the group gives you the "You should never use Freeze" speech. There's no end to people telling you how to do your job the "right way" no matter how tactically sound or creative your move was. Giving you more options only provides avenues of being looked down upon for making the wrong choice, and ultimately everyone gravitates to "best in slot" for both abilities and equipment. It's only when the boundaries are clear that any sort of variety can be introduced.

Edited, Jul 23rd 2014 3:10pm by Xoie
#9 Jul 23 2014 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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There's no good way when dealing with feedback on something SE did. We learned that a long time ago on XI already, but it goes the same for XIV.

If you complain about something long enough they'll fix it, only to turn it into something horrible.
Which, you guessed it, gets complained about even more.

I LOVED 1.0, i honestly did. I could set all the cool abilities that i wanted to my Gladiator, an AoE attack from Archer (Wide Volley), some healing from Conjurer and i grabbed Stoneskin from them too. We had an amazing open world with tons of exploring in it, the combat system was amazing to me and i loved every little bit about it. And then the complaining started from people who shouldnt have interfered and slowly but surely the game was ruined update after update after update. Abilities got taken away, the combat system got revamped, twice, all sorts of pointless IU changes were made that ruined the immersion (why all the monsters suddenly had to have huge HP bars under their names you couldnt remove was beyond me), and people started complaining about how if you zoomed out far enough some places looked alike on the map (while if you just walked through them you couldnt see a thing or even got bothered by it remotely). People giving "feedback" to try and force the game to change is what ruined 1.0 for me. And apparently it wasnt just me since the game went under completely.

I'm glad about the things they did in 2.0 to improve upon the horrible system we were left with by the end of 1.23, but there's far too many things i miss too. I miss the cities being one single zone, i miss big open worlds, i miss being able to set abilities from whatever i want. As much as i like 2.0, because i had experienced how it was before, it'll always bother me.

I'm glad the developers have actually stopped listening to people and their "suggestions" now as much as they can. Nothing is really super broken right now, it's just people getting their toes stepped on or wanting to feel entitled now.
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#10 Jul 23 2014 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:

Well, if you to go back and look at the original 1.0, you could basically build your own class. Wear any armor, equip nearly any ability apart from a few basic attacks which belonged to the weapon you had. And while this sounds like the ultimate in freedom...

Well, you guessed it, it turned into something of the opposite. Everyone looked the same and wore the same armor, even at level 1. Everyone equipped the same abilities. And it was really hard to delegate who should heal or tank because everyone could heal and tank. In the end, offering a smorgasbord of equipment and abilities just turned into "one right way to do things" that you often see in MMOs only it applied to every single class in the game to form one homogenous build you absolutely had to have.

So naturally, it was the player base itself that told the developers that the build-your-class system sounded great in theory, but it turned out to be ridiculous in practice. They longed for traditional roles with boundaries that clearly defined their purpose. That's why Yoshida took the steps he did to limit the cross-class abilities and also to have these specialist jobs that further defined the class.

The jobs themselves are the equivalent to the WoW tech tree (but with no pick-and-mix), except only Arcanist gives you a choice between damage dealer and healer at the moment. But it's clear Yoshida is still trying to work out how to extend this further presumably in time for the expansion.

But the evolution of FFXIV demonstrates that choice is largely an illusion. Even with the limited options of Black Mage, just try casting Freeze in a Full Party sometime and watch as half the group gives you the "You should never use Freeze" speech. There's no end to people telling you how to do your job the "right way" no matter how tactically sound or creative your move was. Giving you more options only provides avenues of being looked down upon for making the wrong choice, and ultimately everyone gravitates to "best in slot" for both abilities and equipment. It's only when the boundaries are clear that any sort of variety can be introduced.

Edited, Jul 23rd 2014 3:10pm by Xoie


There's actually another game out there, The Secret World, that lets you build as you please with different limits.

The actual combat itself may leave something to be desired for some people, but the underlying ability "wheel" as it is called is actually pretty good. The only actual limits in what you can use are either built in by your weapon choice (You can't use abilities that require a sword with a hammer) or implied (equipping a passive ability that boosts another ability is pointless if you aren't using that ability in the first place), but nothing stops you from swapping your build (and the weapons/abilities to go with it).

So a build-your-own-class system can be done, successfully, but it requires different kinds of limitations (and really, a totally different mindset designing it) than what you would normally expect.
#11 Jul 23 2014 at 3:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ravashack wrote:
Xoie wrote:

Well, if you to go back and look at the original 1.0, you could basically build your own class. Wear any armor, equip nearly any ability apart from a few basic attacks which belonged to the weapon you had. And while this sounds like the ultimate in freedom...

Well, you guessed it, it turned into something of the opposite. Everyone looked the same and wore the same armor, even at level 1. Everyone equipped the same abilities. And it was really hard to delegate who should heal or tank because everyone could heal and tank. In the end, offering a smorgasbord of equipment and abilities just turned into "one right way to do things" that you often see in MMOs only it applied to every single class in the game to form one homogenous build you absolutely had to have.

So naturally, it was the player base itself that told the developers that the build-your-class system sounded great in theory, but it turned out to be ridiculous in practice. They longed for traditional roles with boundaries that clearly defined their purpose. That's why Yoshida took the steps he did to limit the cross-class abilities and also to have these specialist jobs that further defined the class.

The jobs themselves are the equivalent to the WoW tech tree (but with no pick-and-mix), except only Arcanist gives you a choice between damage dealer and healer at the moment. But it's clear Yoshida is still trying to work out how to extend this further presumably in time for the expansion.

But the evolution of FFXIV demonstrates that choice is largely an illusion. Even with the limited options of Black Mage, just try casting Freeze in a Full Party sometime and watch as half the group gives you the "You should never use Freeze" speech. There's no end to people telling you how to do your job the "right way" no matter how tactically sound or creative your move was. Giving you more options only provides avenues of being looked down upon for making the wrong choice, and ultimately everyone gravitates to "best in slot" for both abilities and equipment. It's only when the boundaries are clear that any sort of variety can be introduced.

Edited, Jul 23rd 2014 3:10pm by Xoie


There's actually another game out there, The Secret World, that lets you build as you please with different limits.

The actual combat itself may leave something to be desired for some people, but the underlying ability "wheel" as it is called is actually pretty good. The only actual limits in what you can use are either built in by your weapon choice (You can't use abilities that require a sword with a hammer) or implied (equipping a passive ability that boosts another ability is pointless if you aren't using that ability in the first place), but nothing stops you from swapping your build (and the weapons/abilities to go with it).

So a build-your-own-class system can be done, successfully, but it requires different kinds of limitations (and really, a totally different mindset designing it) than what you would normally expect.


I've never looked at that game, so I might give it a glance to see how it can work.

I can say I've played Dark Souls a whole bunch, and I think that had the formula close to right, but I don't know if it could translate to a PvE MMO very well. There were plenty of options in DS, but the big factor was in how you invested your stats. Stacking too much into one stat gave diminishing returns and seriously limited your options in equipment and skills, so this led to a wide variety of strategies. Even then there was still those "Flippy Giant's with Lightning Zweihanders" as a favorite "one true way" ganker's build (back when that ninja's ring was overpowered), but at least people were willing to try different combinations of weapons, spells, and armor overall.

For an MMO, I still think you have to have the right sort of boundaries in place so that there's a clear, unavoidable need for different types of builds where no one build can have it all or do it all. Even then, I still think you run the risk of a party needing a healer, and the person that shows up to fill that role breaks out a sword and says, "I don't do healing."
#12 Jul 23 2014 at 4:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
Well, if you to go back and look at the original 1.0, you could basically build your own class. Wear any armor, equip nearly any ability apart from a few basic attacks which belonged to the weapon you had. And while this sounds like the ultimate in freedom...

Well, you guessed it, it turned into something of the opposite. Everyone looked the same and wore the same armor, even at level 1. Everyone equipped the same abilities. And it was really hard to delegate who should heal or tank because everyone could heal and tank. In the end, offering a smorgasbord of equipment and abilities just turned into "one right way to do things" that you often see in MMOs only it applied to every single class in the game to form one homogenous build you absolutely had to have.

People weren't asking for 'ultimate freedom', they just wanted the freedom to shift in their class or job to play it in a way that suited them. We still expected the game to be structured around the trinity and sacrificing utility in one area for another. We still expected that we'd be forced to fit a single role for whatever the task was, but we didn't want that role forced permanently onto the job or class. If you tell someone that you play warrior in XIV they know you're a tank. If you tell someone you play druid in WoW they ask you which role(s) you play.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#13 Jul 23 2014 at 4:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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972 posts
Xoie wrote:
Well, if you to go back and look at the original 1.0, you could basically build your own class. Wear any armor, equip nearly any ability apart from a few basic attacks which belonged to the weapon you had. And while this sounds like the ultimate in freedom...

Well, you guessed it, it turned into something of the opposite. Everyone looked the same and wore the same armor, even at level 1. Everyone equipped the same abilities. And it was really hard to delegate who should heal or tank because everyone could heal and tank. In the end, offering a smorgasbord of equipment and abilities just turned into "one right way to do things" that you often see in MMOs only it applied to every single class in the game to form one homogenous build you absolutely had to have.

So naturally, it was the player base itself that told the developers that the build-your-class system sounded great in theory, but it turned out to be ridiculous in practice. They longed for traditional roles with boundaries that clearly defined their purpose. That's why Yoshida took the steps he did to limit the cross-class abilities and also to have these specialist jobs that further defined the class.

The jobs themselves are the equivalent to the WoW tech tree (but with no pick-and-mix), except only Arcanist gives you a choice between damage dealer and healer at the moment. But it's clear Yoshida is still trying to work out how to extend this further presumably in time for the expansion.

But the evolution of FFXIV demonstrates that choice is largely an illusion. Even with the limited options of Black Mage, just try casting Freeze in a Full Party sometime and watch as half the group gives you the "You should never use Freeze" speech. There's no end to people telling you how to do your job the "right way" no matter how tactically sound or creative your move was. Giving you more options only provides avenues of being looked down upon for making the wrong choice, and ultimately everyone gravitates to "best in slot" for both abilities and equipment. It's only when the boundaries are clear that any sort of variety can be introduced.

For what it's worth I am not hating on ARR. It is a good game. I'm not even crying for 1.0 because that would be absurd and pointless. Gear, a fleshed out attribute system, later level class traits. job stones, could all add structure and defined gameplay in future fixes. Fixes that money, time, and flexibility could not afford.

The current game is and will probably hold more subscribers than XI or a better version of 1.0 ever could. The masses helped mold this game into what is now just as you say. And there is nothing wrong with that. The biggest sellers usually tone down and monotone things to mesh with a wider audience while risk takers are left to the fate of niche most times. But some prefer those niches rather than a multitude of games that feel similar in many ways.

Kojirosoma wrote:
There's no good way when dealing with feedback on something SE did. We learned that a long time ago on XI already, but it goes the same for XIV.

If you complain about something long enough they'll fix it, only to turn it into something horrible.
Which, you guessed it, gets complained about even more.

I LOVED 1.0, i honestly did. I could set all the cool abilities that i wanted to my Gladiator, an AoE attack from Archer (Wide Volley), some healing from Conjurer and i grabbed Stoneskin from them too. We had an amazing open world with tons of exploring in it, the combat system was amazing to me and i loved every little bit about it. And then the complaining started from people who shouldnt have interfered and slowly but surely the game was ruined update after update after update. Abilities got taken away, the combat system got revamped, twice, all sorts of pointless IU changes were made that ruined the immersion (why all the monsters suddenly had to have huge HP bars under their names you couldnt remove was beyond me), and people started complaining about how if you zoomed out far enough some places looked alike on the map (while if you just walked through them you couldnt see a thing or even got bothered by it remotely). People giving "feedback" to try and force the game to change is what ruined 1.0 for me. And apparently it wasnt just me since the game went under completely.

I'm glad about the things they did in 2.0 to improve upon the horrible system we were left with by the end of 1.23, but there's far too many things i miss too. I miss the cities being one single zone, i miss big open worlds, i miss being able to set abilities from whatever i want. As much as i like 2.0, because i had experienced how it was before, it'll always bother me.

I'm glad the developers have actually stopped listening to people and their "suggestions" now as much as they can. Nothing is really super broken right now, it's just people getting their toes stepped on or wanting to feel entitled now.

I know alot was wrong at initial launch. But not so much the ideas themselves, just implementation and rushing. To this day I feel the power gauge system and regiments had the potential to be a great system and be a defining feature for good reasons. And to feel more provided impact and unique than ARR hot button format and limit break system. But there are many who like the current iteration and this iteration is good too. The zones or open seamless I prefer but not if the topography or geography is bland and uninspiring. But something is keeping from staying subbed and loving the game fully. I can't quite put my finger on it. I know the preference towards bubbled instances is one of the issues. But it's a new team, new design mantra. It's their show, and ARR lovers show. I can either accept that and like or not like the game.

I still like some of the things ARR does but not in long spurts. One game I am looking into is Everquest next. It might or might not captivate me. But I am looking for something that just feels right for me when I play. The old XIV felt like it was building off FFXI and exploring sandboxy stuff. While the new ARR feels more in line with modern mmos/strict themeparks like Wow. And that is good and fine. Still discovering whether this or that is my cup of tea.
#14 Jul 23 2014 at 4:29 PM Rating: Default
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972 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Xoie wrote:
Well, if you to go back and look at the original 1.0, you could basically build your own class. Wear any armor, equip nearly any ability apart from a few basic attacks which belonged to the weapon you had. And while this sounds like the ultimate in freedom...

Well, you guessed it, it turned into something of the opposite. Everyone looked the same and wore the same armor, even at level 1. Everyone equipped the same abilities. And it was really hard to delegate who should heal or tank because everyone could heal and tank. In the end, offering a smorgasbord of equipment and abilities just turned into "one right way to do things" that you often see in MMOs only it applied to every single class in the game to form one homogenous build you absolutely had to have.

People weren't asking for 'ultimate freedom', they just wanted the freedom to shift in their class or job to play it in a way that suited them. We still expected the game to be structured around the trinity and sacrificing utility in one area for another. We still expected that we'd be forced to fit a single role for whatever the task was, but we didn't want that role forced permanently onto the job or class. If you tell someone that you play warrior in XIV they know you're a tank. If you tell someone you play druid in WoW they ask you which role(s) you play.

True.
#15 Jul 24 2014 at 6:57 AM Rating: Excellent
The thing is, you CAN swap roles in XIV, you just can't do it via duty finder.

Back when our FC was still mostly low levels and a bit smaller, we went into Garuda story mode with two WHMs, a BRD, and a PLD. I was the DPS WHM. Cleric's Stance let me actually fill out the role of DPS adequately. It took us a few tries but we beat it.

I wish I could equip cleric's stance on BLM. Then my emergency Physick might actually do something. Smiley: lol
#16 Jul 24 2014 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
The thing is, you CAN swap roles in XIV, you just can't do it via duty finder.

That's kinda the point though. You would want to be useful to more than just groups of your friends who are tolerant. People want viable options, not just in DF but in gearing and abilities to support it as well. Need more than just filler abilities to aid in solo leveling to make a healer a DD.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#17 Jul 24 2014 at 3:49 PM Rating: Excellent
If you tried to melee RDM in XI in a group that didn't involve your friends....

I do hope that they'll eventually add in branching jobs for the existing classes. There's a lot of untouched potential in XIV. Sure, it's not as flexible as WoW or XI were, but it has room to grow.
#18 Jul 24 2014 at 7:19 PM Rating: Excellent
Catwho wrote:
If you tried to melee RDM in XI in a group that didn't involve your friends....

I do hope that they'll eventually add in branching jobs for the existing classes. There's a lot of untouched potential in XIV. Sure, it's not as flexible as WoW or XI were, but it has room to grow.


The level cap increase will change the landscape as always. Open up new cross-class possibilities.

In fact, when NIN is added they have to pick two job for cross-classing, right? Will that change other existing cross-class combinations?

This somewhat supports the idea that other new classes would be added at the same time.

#19 Jul 25 2014 at 1:47 AM Rating: Good
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Gnu wrote:
Catwho wrote:
If you tried to melee RDM in XI in a group that didn't involve your friends....

I do hope that they'll eventually add in branching jobs for the existing classes. There's a lot of untouched potential in XIV. Sure, it's not as flexible as WoW or XI were, but it has room to grow.


The level cap increase will change the landscape as always. Open up new cross-class possibilities.

In fact, when NIN is added they have to pick two job for cross-classing, right? Will that change other existing cross-class combinations?

This somewhat supports the idea that other new classes would be added at the same time.



Gnu wrote:
Catwho wrote:
If you tried to melee RDM in XI in a group that didn't involve your friends....

I do hope that they'll eventually add in branching jobs for the existing classes. There's a lot of untouched potential in XIV. Sure, it's not as flexible as WoW or XI were, but it has room to grow.


The level cap increase will change the landscape as always. Open up new cross-class possibilities.

In fact, when NIN is added they have to pick two job for cross-classing, right? Will that change other existing cross-class combinations?

This somewhat supports the idea that other new classes would be added at the same time.


It also opens up the possibility of three classes eventually being CC-able to a job. With a hypothetical level cap of 60, that's 7 class abilities on a job. Having a third class to pull from would open up options in a lot of ways. Add LNC to WAR and you can actually build for effective damage thanks to Invigorate and B4B. Add ARC to WHM and it can become a viable supporting DPS. Add CNJ to BLM to increase raid utility (but leave out Cleric Stance or we'd get weird MND-stacking BLM's wanting healer gear because Cleric Stance is bomb for BLM DPS).

Or something. New classes would fit the bill too.

Edited, Jul 25th 2014 12:47am by Quor
#20 Jul 25 2014 at 3:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Gnu wrote:
The level cap increase will change the landscape as always. Open up new cross-class possibilities.

Where was this stated?

Quor wrote:
It also opens up the possibility of three classes eventually being CC-able to a job.

Isn't that already the case? I guess maybe you meant a 4th?
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#21 Jul 25 2014 at 4:55 AM Rating: Good
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Meanwhile, for those who can never settle on a main, having your options stifled by caps sucks. :/
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#22 Jul 25 2014 at 7:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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But the evolution of FFXIV demonstrates that choice is largely an illusion. Even with the limited options of Black Mage, just try casting Freeze in a Full Party sometime and watch as half the group gives you the "You should never use Freeze" speech. There's no end to people telling you how to do your job the "right way" no matter how tactically sound or creative your move was. Giving you more options only provides avenues of being looked down upon for making the wrong choice, and ultimately everyone gravitates to "best in slot" for both abilities and equipment. It's only when the boundaries are clear that any sort of variety can be introduced.


Choices done right are good, Choices done wrong are illusions.

Someone mentioned WoW a post or two above the one I'm quoting here and Warlocks.

Using Demonology, Affliction, or Destruction is the good kind of choice -- if you want to be Demonology instead of Affliction or Destruction (which plays very different), you can do that in 99.9% of the game's content.

Or, Rogue. If you like Combat instead of Assassination, you can be Combat in Raids and nobody cares in 99.9% of the content. Warriors. You can be Arms or Fury in the same 99.9% of the content; nobody cares.

Why do these choices work? Because the difference between these choices is less than 10%. Some of them, the difference is less than 5%. They have very different playstyles, but do nearly identical DPS under similar gear levels and conditions, making it a true "choice".

Now, when something is not a choice, is when 1 "choice" is far superior than the other "choices".

THAT is Choice Done Wrong. Let's say that Demonology Warlocks did 25% more DPS than Affliction or Destruction. Then, it no longer becomes a "Choice" which spec of Warlock to play, right? Showing up as Affliction or Destruction is going to get you laughed at and it would indeed fit under the "Illusion of Choice" Definition you supplied here.

The problem is, not all game developers are particularly good at game balance to have such fine lines between "Choices" so that they can be real "Choices" and not "Illusions of Choice".

In FFXIV, Being a Gladiator vs being a Paladin.... there's not really any "Choice" there, is there? You can gain a wider range of abilities from other jobs being a Gladiator.......that you're probably not going to use. Paladin, however, gives you a lot of useful abilities for Tanking that you would actually probably use, and still allows you to access a few cross-job abilities you were probably going to pick anyways. So the "Choice" of deciding not to equip the PLD soulstone is... not really a "Choice" at all.

Now... if... they had made other jobs' abilities (the ones you cannot use as a PLD) actually competitive with the things you get as PLD, to the point where GLA and PLD would perform almost exactly as good, and if PLD and GLA played a bit more differently, then you would have a true "choice" -- it really would be up to you if you decided to go GLA or PLD.

I'm not saying this is a realistic thing to do; that's just purely hypothetical obviously; this is meant to further explain the difference between Choice and Illusion of Choice.

EDIT: And even if they added more soulstones, the current way in which soulstones seems to work tells me that some classes might have challenge really finding a whole heck of a lot of variety when equipping them. Again, GLA/PLD as an example... the PLD soulstone gives you a few extra abilities, but basically you're still playing GLA with a few "light" type abilities on your hotkey bar (Sword/Shield Oath, Cover, etc). If they gave GLA another Soulstone, it'd still be GLA... with a few extra abilities themed to something other than "light magic sword&board warrior", but it'd still play very similar unless they change soulstones to actually modify your base rotation.

Edited, Jul 25th 2014 9:14am by Lyrailis
#23 Jul 25 2014 at 8:33 AM Rating: Default
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Lyrailis wrote:
EDIT: And even if they added more soulstones, the current way in which soulstones seems to work tells me that some classes might have challenge really finding a whole heck of a lot of variety when equipping them. Again, GLA/PLD as an example... the PLD soulstone gives you a few extra abilities, but basically you're still playing GLA with a few "light" type abilities on your hotkey bar (Sword/Shield Oath, Cover, etc). If they gave GLA another Soulstone, it'd still be GLA... with a few extra abilities themed to something other than "light magic sword&board warrior", but it'd still play very similar unless they change soulstones to actually modify your base rotation.


I'm not sure I understand. Are you asking for a second Soulstone to go from, say, sword and shield to two-handed sword? Would having a second Soulstone turn a tanking job (GLD/PLD) to a DPS one be something you'd want, or would having a sword and shield make it not something you'd be interested in?
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#24 Jul 27 2014 at 8:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not sure I understand. Are you asking for a second Soulstone to go from, say, sword and shield to two-handed sword? Would having a second Soulstone turn a tanking job (GLD/PLD) to a DPS one be something you'd want, or would having a sword and shield make it not something you'd be interested in?


My point is that no matter what soul stones you stick on a class, even if you had something that turned GLA into a DPS, you're still doing the same basic rotations unless said soulstone dumped 10+ abilities on you when you equipped it.

A Gladiator is still a Gladiator, with or without the PLD soulstone -- it still does FB->SB->RoH over and over again with some other abilities mixed in.

Adding a soulstone that turns the class into a DPS class would probably still likely be FB->SB->RoH spam.

I'm not sure how you'd fix it other than like I said, giving soulstones more abilities so that you can actually change how the class is played so it doesn't feel so "samey" with a couple new things tacked on.
#25 Jul 27 2014 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:

In FFXIV, Being a Gladiator vs being a Paladin.... there's not really any "Choice" there, is there? You can gain a wider range of abilities from other jobs being a Gladiator.......that you're probably not going to use. Paladin, however, gives you a lot of useful abilities for Tanking that you would actually probably use, and still allows you to access a few cross-job abilities you were probably going to pick anyways. So the "Choice" of deciding not to equip the PLD soulstone is... not really a "Choice" at all.

Now... if... they had made other jobs' abilities (the ones you cannot use as a PLD) actually competitive with the things you get as PLD, to the point where GLA and PLD would perform almost exactly as good, and if PLD and GLA played a bit more differently, then you would have a true "choice" -- it really would be up to you if you decided to go GLA or PLD.

I'm not saying this is a realistic thing to do; that's just purely hypothetical obviously; this is meant to further explain the difference between Choice and Illusion of Choice.

EDIT: And even if they added more soulstones, the current way in which soulstones seems to work tells me that some classes might have challenge really finding a whole heck of a lot of variety when equipping them. Again, GLA/PLD as an example... the PLD soulstone gives you a few extra abilities, but basically you're still playing GLA with a few "light" type abilities on your hotkey bar (Sword/Shield Oath, Cover, etc). If they gave GLA another Soulstone, it'd still be GLA... with a few extra abilities themed to something other than "light magic sword&board warrior", but it'd still play very similar unless they change soulstones to actually modify your base rotation.

Edited, Jul 25th 2014 9:14am by Lyrailis

A lot of what you said made sense. But just know here that Classes are not supposed to be different from their jobs much in innate ability/traits. The class is what is supposed to help you solo more with mostly uncapped class abilities mix and match if it is designed right. While the job is supposed to be the same class, restricted in cross class but stronger in one area and designed to function in parties better. If anything Gladiator is not supposed to be a choice in parties. I think late FFXI would be a game to look at when you look at ARR professions. The class in ARR is like subjobs in FFXI only they are not supposed to get as strong as the main job in the job's area of strength and the job in ARR is like a job in FFXI. Only don't consider them as separate entities. At least this is the way I understood it when the armoury system came into place.

If my prediction is right. We will see greater variety as the level caps rise. Let's say the cap maximum cap for all time was 100 and there was 20 battle classes. Assuming classes get new abilities, traits, and such. That would make a class very versatile being able to sub class about anything from any class. Each class will probably get a few innate/unique skills as well. Where as the job will distance itself even further from the class as they get more unique ability/traits themselves making them own the role they are meant for. In my mind that was probably the plan since beginning when the armoury system was conceptualized. It just got lost in the muddle of revising everything.

TLDR: Think of a job like piece of gear you equip that buffs parameters and gives some unique ability/traits when equipped. Only the gear will power up over time with level cap raises. Who is to say they won't cap stuff you can equip from classes on jobs at 50 if the job cap was 100? If classes and jobs get almost completely distinguished from one another. I might ask why are we still calling them classes and just call everything jobs?
#26 Aug 01 2014 at 7:39 AM Rating: Decent
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Gnu wrote:
The level cap increase will change the landscape as always. Open up new cross-class possibilities.

Where was this stated?

Quor wrote:
It also opens up the possibility of three classes eventually being CC-able to a job.

Isn't that already the case? I guess maybe you meant a 4th?


I'm assuming at least one of the abilities that we will get 50-60 will be cross-classable. Something that you unlock at 52 perhaps. As a main, you may get a Trait that makes it even stronger. Still useful as a Cross-class. All this is guessing.

Right now Jobs just get 2 classes to pick CC abilities from. I could see where 3 would be an interesting change!
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